Economy 19 Million Public Employees Cost Taxpayers Nearly $1 Trillion

Been wondering about this. We need to start looking at government as if it was overhead.

The government has needed a good audit for decades. We've all heard about the $100 claw hammer. I used to work for Lockheed Martin, it's amazing what they get away with.
 
Not exactly fair since people are working while not being paid. Other departments and agencies are forcing people to stay home without pay so they’re operating on the bare minimum. In some cases diminishing mission capabilities. Do you work for the federal or state government?

I’m currently a state government employee, previous federal employee, trying to go federal again. Anyway, I’ve seen some unreal fraud, waste, and abuse but the benefits far outweigh the costs. I agree to a certain extent that we can definitely trim up some loose fat. However, people have become far too accustomed to a certain lifestyle and the services these agencies/departments/employees provide are valuable to everyday people.

Maybe these government workers should be out in the private sector. Why should I care about their "mission capabilities" if they're not essential to the functioning of society? It doesn't reflect well on their jobs when the only fallout from the shutdown is the fact that they won't be collecting a check.

I'm in the private sector. I was a state employee for a time, and I am still surrounded by state and federal employees every day. I may go back into state or federal government one day. I have respect for anyone who makes an honest living, including government workers. The problem is the government has thrust itself into areas where it doesn't belong, and made it its mission to solve problems nobody really needs solved. For example, out here in CA, we have a Board of Cosmetology, because some genius in the legislature decided that the public can't tolerate the risk of getting a bad perm. If the Board stops operating, life as usual goes on for everyone except the Board's employees. So what about the federal shutdown? Well consider the following:
  • [*]Loans to rural communities will be halted.
    [*]New applications for small business loans will be halted.
    [*]Permits and reviews for energy and transportation projects will be halted except in cases of emergency.
    [*]Consumer protection services (child product safety, financial security, etc.) will be halted.
    [*]Non-essential Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) inspections of chemical facilities and drinking water systems will be halted.
    [*]Most non-essential federal employees will be immediately furloughed without pay.
    [*]New patients may not enroll in National Institutes of Health (NIH) clinical trials.
Thus, most people are completely unaffected, and those who are affected are affected because the federal government has chosen to insert itself into people's lives. In other words, all of the people who "need" the government only need it because (1) the government says so, or (2) they themselves work for the government. That's not a compelling case for keeping this shitshow funded.
 
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For example, the federal government is shut down right now and life has gone on like normal for everyone not employed by the federal government. That's because essential services are still running. Makes you wonder why we need those nonessential services.
I worked for a private company. We could probably get by on half staff for a week, maybe even a month. At that point things that had been put off would start to catch up, things would be being missed, people would start to burn out...

Just because you can run on less staff for a fixed period of time with no obvious effects immediately doesn't mean that the lower staff is actually what is needed to fulfil the tasks. This equally applies in Govt and in business.
 
For example, the federal government is shut down right now and life has gone on like normal for everyone not employed by the federal government. That's because essential services are still running. Makes you wonder why we need those nonessential services.

Essential services always continue running during any and all shutdowns. Can you even name those "essential functions" or any you think aren't operating?
 
The government has needed a good audit for decades. We've all heard about the $100 claw hammer. I used to work for Lockheed Martin, it's amazing what they get away with.

You realize they're not actually buying a hammer for $100 right? It's completely related to all of the red tape and overhead that I mentioned earlier in this thread. One of the best things the Fed ever did was authorize the use of credit cards to buy things under a certain dollar threshold. Then after a few years it got muddied and all purchases required prior approval and several signatures before the purchase was made. Completely removed any efficiency that may have been created originally by bogging the system back down because some folks took advantage of the program and bought things they shouldn't have. All Departments and Agencies were restricted due to several "bad apples".
 
I worked for a private company. We could probably get by on half staff for a week, maybe even a month. At that point things that had been put off would start to catch up, things would be being missed, people would start to burn out...

Just because you can run on less staff for a fixed period of time with no obvious effects immediately doesn't mean that the lower staff is actually what is needed to fulfil the tasks. This equally applies in Govt and in business.

I understand all that. I'm questioning the necessity of the government's undertakings in the first place. Most of the the government's missions are not necessary, many of them are not clearly defined, and some of them are impossible. But because our government hired these people, now they're dependent on a paycheck, regardless of whether we need their services or not.
 
Maybe these government workers should be out in the private sector. Why should I care about their "mission capabilities" if they're not essential to the functioning of society? It doesn't reflect well on their jobs when the only fallout from the shutdown is the fact that they won't be collecting a check.

You don't honestly believe not being paid on time is the only fallout from the shutdown do you?

I'm in the private sector. I was a state employee for a time, and I am still surrounded by state and federal employees every day. I may go back into state or federal government one day. I have respect for anyone who makes an honest living, including government workers. The problem is the government has thrust itself into areas where it doesn't belong, and made it its mission to solve problems nobody really needs solved. For example, out here in CA, we have a Board of Cosmetology, because some genius in the legislature decided that the public can't tolerate the risk of getting a bad perm.

So the CA Board of Cosmetology only regulates perms and isn't involved in issuing licenses to operators in general or licensing businesses while working with the CA State Dept of Health to conduct health and safety inspections of these shops?

If the Board stops operating, life as usual goes on for everyone except the Board's employees.

So no licenses are issued? Sounds like that might impact someone hoping to making a living giving good perms.

So what about the federal shutdown?

Well consider the following:

[*]Loans to rural communities will be halted.
[*]New applications for small business loans will be halted.
[*]Permits and reviews for energy and transportation projects will be halted except in cases of emergency.
[*]Consumer protection services (child product safety, financial security, etc.) will be halted.
[*]Non-essential Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) inspections of chemical facilities and drinking water systems will be halted.
[*]Most non-essential federal employees will be immediately furloughed without pay.
[*]New patients may not enroll in National Institutes of Health (NIH) clinical trials.

In this particular shutdown there are many Departments and Agencies that are in fact fully funded. FDA for example. In previous shutdowns there were several critical FDA functions that while still being performed they weren't completed as efficiently or timely as before the shutdown due to contracts or folks deemed not excepted or exempt from a furlough (all due to where their salary is paid from and not based on whether they perform a critical job or not) not being allowed to work.

In other words, most people are completely unaffected, and those who are affected are affected because the federal government has chosen to insert itself into people's lives. In other words, all of the people who "need" the government only need it because (1) the government says so, or (2) they themselves work for the government. That's not a compelling case for keeping this shitshow funded.

Debatable . . . folks often have a short memory with these shutdowns. Especially if you aren't in the DC Area where there are many more inherently Federal programs that people might notice not being available.

And this annual hostage situation where budgets are held up is NOT anything close to a reflection of the type or quality of work those of us affected perform . . . each POTUS should be required to submit a 4 year budget where common appropriations aren't impacted. The only negotiations that should be undertaken would be something new or emergency expenditures.
 
Most of the the government's missions are not necessary, many of them are not clearly defined, and some of them are impossible.

Like what?

But because our government hired these people, now they're dependent on a paycheck, regardless of whether we need their services or not.

What services do you think you don't need? Besides looking for that next great perm.
 
Tier 2 IT support for about 2 dozen health care facilities in Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas . . .

When it comes to medical care, it's my understanding that inpatient care and emergency services at government-run facilities are deemed "essential." That makes sense if the patients have an acute need for treatment. Does the absence of a Tier 2 IT support guy prohibit the hospital from treating admitted patients or rendering emergency treatment? If so, your position should be classified as "essential." Note that even without public hospitals, patients have access to a wide variety of private hospitals.

Just for clarification, you're a federal employee, right? Are you being affected by the shutdown?

Essential services always continue running during any and all shutdowns. Can you even name those "essential functions" or any you think aren't operating?

Yeah, that's easy (e.g., national security, law enforcement, prisons, emergency medical care, air traffic control, border patrol, emergency/disaster assistance, etc.). It's the "non-essential" services that are most controversial, because many people have trouble distinguishing want from need, and inconvenience from tragedy. Many people (federal employees especially) just can't bring themselves to admit that at least 40%, and arguably much more, of the federal workforce is superfluous.

BTW, it appears the correct distinction is "excepted" vs. "non-excepted" federal employees rather than "essential" vs. "non-essential." Personally, I prefer the latter terminology, but whatever.
 
When it comes to medical care, it's my understanding that inpatient care and emergency services at government-run facilities are deemed "essential." That makes sense if the patients have an acute need for treatment. Does the absence of a Tier 2 IT support guy prohibit the hospital from treating admitted patients or rendering emergency treatment? If so, your position should be classified as "essential." Note that even without public hospitals, patients have access to a wide variety of private hospitals.

The patients my Agency (Indian Health Service) are American Indians and Alaska Natives. Depending on where our facilities are located they do not in fact have access to a wide variety of private hospitals.

We're often the only means for these folks to receive care and remain open regardless of being a 24/7 in-patient facility with an ER or outpatient clinic open 8-5.

Just for clarification, you're a federal employee, right? Are you being affected by the shutdown?

I'm a Commissioned Officer in the US Public Health Service. I'm exempt from being furloughed. I've dealt with these various shut downs since 1995. I've worked through all of them and haven't missed a pay check with the exception of one being late during one of the Clinton (I think it was Clinton) shut downs.

Yeah, that's easy (e.g., national security, law enforcement, prisons, emergency medical care, air traffic control, border patrol, emergency/disaster assistance, etc.).

Nice list . . . but the thing is that there are in fact several folks who normally support those functions who have been furloughed. Which stretches others thin or prevents some support activities from being completed.

It's the "non-essential" services that are most controversial, because many people have trouble distinguishing want from need, and inconvenience from tragedy. Many people (federal employees especially) just can't bring themselves to admit that at least 40%, and arguably much more, of the federal workforce is superfluous.

That's definitely a better conversation . . . and needs some specific examples to discuss.

BTW, it appears the correct distinction is "excepted" vs. "non-excepted" federal employees rather than "essential" vs. "non-essential." Personally, I prefer the latter terminology, but whatever.

Yes that is correct with the addition of "exempt". All of them have been used in the past during shutdowns. Some folks had their feelings hurt due to the use of "non-essential" . . . so they shifted to excepted and non-excepted. It's stupid.
 
You don't honestly believe not being paid on time is the only fallout from the shutdown do you?

Yeah, along with the cessation of a few elective government operations. That's basically what I've been arguing ITT.


So the CA Board of Cosmetology only regulates perms and isn't involved in issuing licenses to operators in general or licensing businesses while working with the CA State Dept of Health to conduct health and safety inspections of these shops?

The Board of Cosmetology does all sorts of things to justify its existence. They do issue licenses and conduct inspections. My position is that those activities are a waste of time and money.

So no licenses are issued? Sounds like that might impact someone hoping to making a living giving good perms.

Picture this scenario: someone makes a living giving perms, without a license to do so, because no license is necessary.

In this particular shutdown there are many Departments and Agencies that are in fact fully funded. FDA for example. In previous shutdowns there were several critical FDA functions that while still being performed they weren't completed as efficiently or timely as before the shutdown due to contracts or folks deemed not excepted or exempt from a furlough (all due to where their salary is paid from and not based on whether they perform a critical job or not) not being allowed to work.

I don't dispute any of that, except perhaps the characterization of a particular government function as "critical." I'm sure all agencies believe their projects are "critical."

Debatable . . . folks often have a short memory with these shutdowns. Especially if you aren't in the DC Area where there are many more inherently Federal programs that people might notice not being available.

I'd wager everyone in the DC area notices the effects of the shutdown. After all, it's the headquarters for our nation's government. However, in the rest of the the USA outside of DC, the vast majority of people are just fine. In fact, many people are better off.

And this annual hostage situation where budgets are held up is NOT anything close to a reflection of the type or quality of work those of us affected perform . . . each POTUS should be required to submit a 4 year budget where common appropriations aren't impacted. The only negotiations that should be undertaken would be something new or emergency expenditures.

Our government should never be so large and so "essential" that a political budget dispute could amount to a doomsday event. In a way, that's the idea behind the USA. Ours is a nation founded by self-sufficient, independent-minded people who despised centralized, authoritarian government. They drafted a Constitution that set forth a limited government, with limited powers.

If a budget dispute led to cessation of national security, military, law enforcement, etc., that would be different (a failure to provide "common defense and general welfare"). But we're basically talking about our government failing to meet its self-imposed obligations. The only people who suffer are people who work for the government, or people who cannot secure that which they're not Constitutionally entitled to anyway.
 
The patients my Agency (Indian Health Service) are American Indians and Alaska Natives. Depending on where our facilities are located they do not in fact have access to a wide variety of private hospitals.

We're often the only means for these folks to receive care and remain open regardless of being a 24/7 in-patient facility with an ER or outpatient clinic open 8-5.

I'm a Commissioned Officer in the US Public Health Service. I'm exempt from being furloughed. I've dealt with these various shut downs since 1995. I've worked through all of them and haven't missed a pay check with the exception of one being late during one of the Clinton (I think it was Clinton) shut downs.

Sounds like you're not affected by the shutdown all that much.

I can't stress this enough: I'm not against the government providing essential services, as long as they're actually essential.

Nice list . . . but the thing is that there are in fact several folks who normally support those functions who have been furloughed. Which stretches others thin or prevents some support activities from being completed.

There's something to be said for the process of classifying certain positions as essential / non-essential / excepted / non-excepted. Essential personnel shouldn't be classified as non-essential. But I recognize that agencies tend to interpret their missions expansively, and they would of course include their plethora of "support" staff in pursuit of their "essential" functions.

Anyway, I'm more concerned about those non-essential federal employees. My sympathy for them goes only so far as they relied on the government for a job. Aside from that, I'm not clutching my pearls over the EPA's inability to study the effect of cell phone interference on ground squirrels, or something like that. The American people will manage to trudge forward somehow.

That's definitely a better conversation . . . and needs some specific examples to discuss.

That's what where my concern is. I'm not against essential government services. The fact that they're essential is the reason they're not in danger of not being funded at the moment.

Yes that is correct with the addition of "exempt". All of them have been used in the past during shutdowns. Some folks had their feelings hurt due to the use of "non-essential" . . . so they shifted to excepted and non-excepted. It's stupid.

I figured.
 
You realize they're not actually buying a hammer for $100 right? It's completely related to all of the red tape and overhead that I mentioned earlier in this thread. One of the best things the Fed ever did was authorize the use of credit cards to buy things under a certain dollar threshold. Then after a few years it got muddied and all purchases required prior approval and several signatures before the purchase was made. Completely removed any efficiency that may have been created originally by bogging the system back down because some folks took advantage of the program and bought things they shouldn't have. All Departments and Agencies were restricted due to several "bad apples".
In my 13 years with the Man, it's gone from buy whatever you need, as long as it's under $100. To, submit a purchase request, wait for approval, buy item. The approval typically going across 3 people's desks, and taking a week or so. About 40 minutes of paperwork for just me, per purchase.
 
Is it possible that privatizing would make a huge difference?
 
In my 13 years with the Man, it's gone from buy whatever you need, as long as it's under $100. To, submit a purchase request, wait for approval, buy item. The approval typically going across 3 people's desks, and taking a week or so. About 40 minutes of paperwork for just me, per purchase.

Yep . . . 15 years ago I ran a training program for several hundred environmental health professionals out of Albuquerque. I had to secure training locations, complete contracts for trainers and buy supplies. If I was in Seattle for a week-long training and needed to buy something I could just grab my IMPAC card and buy it. Then complete the justification, etc. when I got back.

Today I'd need to wait for approval and likely never get it in time to even use it for that particular need.
 
Is it possible that privatizing would make a huge difference?

Depends on how the contracts were awarded/managed. Those in and of themselves are bears to deal with some times due to needing annual renewals and regular receiving reports to get people paid. Our finance folks aren't very consistent with paying people in a timely manner and it has impacted my current department by not being able to have our backup tapes picked up and stored off site.
 
That’s a whopping 52,631.58 per year average.
Whoopity fuckin do
 
For example, the federal government is shut down right now and life has gone on like normal for everyone not employed by the federal government. That's because essential services are still running. Makes you wonder why we need those nonessential services.
what about say National Parks?

they literally have volunteer only right now here at Joshua Tree National Park, and thus the campgrounds had to be closed due to excess trash buildup, damage, and other things

I get that's not technically an 'essential service', but things in certain Federal Depts are being heavily effected
I mean ffs the Coast Guard isn't even being paid right now
 
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