Crime 11 people killed after shooting in Hanau, Germany. Suspect dead, left video & letter

[Islam Imamate]

Nowhere.

But by conflating a demonstrably beneficial idea with its most extreme relatives you implied as much. Just like in the Sweden thread where you took my position that Sweden could benefit from contained national pride (nationalism) and thus diverted the conversation from the topic at hand.

I am not conflating them, you're missing my point here. You say we shouldn't tolerate Muslims in the free marketplace of ideas because you believe their ultimate goal is something that you find to be intolerant right? Well then why should we tolerate people who are anti-theist in the marketplace of ideas? Again not mere atheists. If you just don't believe in God and go about your business then obviously that is not who I am talking about here. Or if you just believe in the separation of church and state that's also not what I am talking about obviously since many religious people, Muslims included, believe in that as well.

I am talking about atheists who proselytize their atheism, who make it their mission to turn people away from religion and who want to do away with organized religion. Why should the free marketplace of ideas tolerate them given their abysmal track record of intolerance? In the last two centuries we've seen that the minute these types get power they embark on a rein of terror far worse than what Islamic governments in the same time period have done.

 

[Bald1]

Hung Aryan.

Yes, a magical land where women, minorities and homosexuals are worse off than where Islam rules.

That is definitely not the case

How so?

 

[Islam Imamate]

That all went out the window when he found out where I was born. Just waiting for him to call me a cunt. Lol

In my defense I use cunt the way the Brits do since I first heard it from their movies. Its more a term of endearment really.

Spoiler

Cunt

 

[Bald1]

I am not conflating them, you're missing my point here. You say we shouldn't tolerate Muslims in the free marketplace of ideas because you believe their ultimate goal is something that you find to be intolerant right? Well then why should we tolerate people who are anti-theist in the marketplace of ideas? Again not mere atheists. If you just don't believe in God and go about your business then obviously that is not who I am talking about here. Or if you just believe in the separation of church and state that's also not what I am talking about obviously since many religious people, Muslims included, believe in that as well.

I am talking about atheists who proselytize their atheism, who make it their mission to turn people away from religion and who want to do away with organized religion. Why should the free marketplace of ideas tolerate them given their abysmal track record of intolerance? In the last two centuries we've seen that the minute these types get power they embark on a rein of terror far worse than what Islamic governments in the same time period have done.

Fair point. And as I'm sure you've noticed I'm vocal in my condemnation of militant atheists or anyone advocating for a state free of X. Perhaps they need to establish their version of SA, a state I have no interest in converting to my ideals. At the same time I prefer they and their ideology stay contained in their miserable little part of the globe.

 

[Bald1]

In my defense I use cunt the way the Brits do since I first heard it from their movies. Its more a term of endearment really.

Spoiler

Cunt

It doesn't really bother me tbh with you. You do you and I'll keep on being me. All good aside from the occasional reciprocal cheap shots.

 

[MVelsor]

Yes, a magical land where women, minorities and homosexuals are worse off than where Islam rules.

In my defense I use cunt the way the Brits do since I first heard it from their movies. Its more a term of endearment really.

Spoiler

Cunt

I read a little bit of the WR during my month off. Those debates in the sweede threads started getting purty e-tangibly tense. And on that note, it seems he's also called it quits since the Dubai Princess thread.

@Kafir-kun, a pretentious muslim who wants to learn arabic points to everyone that he was born and raised in the USA, but at the same time sees our western way of life as something hedonistic. You are black and @NoDak is gay. The irony is that he is a good informative poster and you are a bitching poster.

 

[blaseblah]

How so?

The majority of North America and Europe is theist.

 

[Bald1]

I read a little bit of the WR during my month off. Those debates in the sweede threads started getting purty e-tangibly tense. And on that note, it seems he's also called it quits since the Dubai Princess thread.

The funny bit? Swede was one of the Euros calling me a xenophobic racist at the onset of the migrant crisis, at which point I've already talked to quite a few people about the situation who lived on the front lines. Familiarity does indeed breed content.

Outside of the topic of Islam Kafir and I seem to find common ground easily enough. It is what it is.

 

[Bald1]

The majority of North America and Europe is theist.

The last I looked around 70% of Europe are culturally Christian and don't regularly practice their faith. My old church stands all but abandoned. Most of Europeans are cafeteria Christians. Notice the countries that are the most religious are the least representative of Europe. Turkey is not, nor has it ever been representative of Europe.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe

As for North America? Yeah, Mexico leads the way and the US is decidedly backwards in this regard, but the US is a secular state after all.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Fair point. And as I'm sure you've noticed I'm vocal in my condemnation of militant atheists or anyone advocating for a state free of X. Perhaps they need to establish their version of SA, a state I have no interest in converting to my ideals. At the same time I prefer they and their ideology stay contained in their miserable little part of the globe.

So in your eyes both anti-theism and Islam are not to be tolerated in a free marketplace of ideas. So then I guess by definition Marxism also shouldn't be tolerated either. So who else shouldn't be free in the free marketplace of ideas?

 

[Bald1]

So in your eyes both anti-theism and Islam are not to be tolerated in a free marketplace of ideas. So then I guess by definition Marxism also shouldn't be tolerated either. So who else shouldn't be free in the free marketplace of ideas?

Way to focus on one part of an argument while ignoring others that give it context. Again.

 

[Islam Imamate]

As for this question

Lay your cards on the table. Is Islam beneficial to a free society where tolerance and diversity should be the norm? I say until it goes through some sort of reformation or at least secularizes, it has no place at the grownups table.

I think yes it can be based on the fact that Senegal, one of the only democratic Muslims states in the world, also happens to have the highest amount of participation in Sufi brotherhoods(95% of the Muslim population) and despite being 96% Muslim elected a Catholic as its first president.

Way to focus on one part of an argument while ignoring others that give it context. Again.

What exactly am I ignoring?

 

[Bald1]

As for this question
I think yes it can be based on the fact that Senegal, one of the only democratic Muslims states in the world, also happens to have the highest amount of participation in Sufi brotherhoods(95% of the Muslim population) and despite being 96% Muslim elected a Catholic as its first president.

What exactly am I ignoring?

You and I both know sufusts (is that right), just like Quranists aren't exactly representative of mainstream Islam.

This is what you're ignoring:

Islam's relationship with the free market place of ideas is the same as with minority rights. All for it until it's in control of granting it. Dhimmi, jizya and the ever shrinking number of non Muslims in Islam controlled lands is proof.

Now I wouldn't even care of it all ended there. The fact that the concept of "counter speech with speech, ideas with ideas and the physical with the physical" is abandoned in favour of counter everything with violence means that the juice isn't worth the squeeze when it comes to Islam. To tolerate the intolerant is self defeating.

Aaaand I'm done answering your questions until you do me the same courtesy. Cheers!

 

[Islam Imamate]

You and I both know sufusts (is that right), just like Quranists aren't exactly representative of mainstream Islam.

This is what you're ignoring:

Sufism is integral to traditional Islam, its about as traditional as it gets. Its one third of what was considered necessary to be a practicing Muslim for most of Islam's existence(the other two parts being Madhhab and Aqidah). Wahhabism and Salafism have far less claim to being mainstream Islam, they are the aberration and yet it seems you're conflating Islam with those strains.

Aaaand I'm done answering your questions until you do me the same courtesy. Cheers!

There isn't a single question mark in that post so what exactly is your question? Are you asking me if I think Islam is bad for freedom? Somehow I think you know how I'd answer that question.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Is cordiality coming to an end between Kafir and the Bald1?

I've always had an ornery argumentative style. Am I set off more by certain subjects more than others? Perhaps.

 

[MVelsor]

I've always had an ornery argumentative style. Am I set off more by certain subjects more than others? Perhaps.

I'm fairly confident that I entirely understand why you get defensive on here at times, albeit through a (wildly) different lens lol. It's too bad none of us can actually walk a mile in each other's shoes.

 

[Bald1]

There isn't a single question mark in that post so what exactly is your question? Are you asking me if I think Islam is bad for freedom? Somehow I think you know how I'd answer that question.

I'm over it, am positive we'll be back at it again in the future. And again. And... If we were to gather all our exchanges on this topic we'd be on page 100 at least after all.

Here's the question, but we've done enough derailing I figure.

Lay your cards on the table. Is Islam beneficial to a free society where tolerance and diversity should be the norm? I say until it goes through some sort of reformation or at least secularizes, it has no place at the grownups table.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I'm over it, am positive we'll be back at it again in the future. And again. And... If we were to gather all our exchanges on this topic we'd be on page 100 at least after all.

Here's the question, but we've done enough derailing I figure.

I did answer that question though, literally in the very post you said I was ignoring it.

As for this question
I think yes it can be based on the fact that Senegal, one of the only democratic Muslims states in the world, also happens to have the highest amount of participation in Sufi brotherhoods(95% of the Muslim population) and despite being 96% Muslim elected a Catholic as its first president.

What exactly am I ignoring?

The logic you're using to exclude Muslims is not new btw, it was once said of Catholics as well. Going back to John Mills it was argued that freedom of religion does not apply to Catholics since they are an inherently unfree religion as they take their marching orders from the Pope. And it was argued that Catholicism prevented democracy based on the resilience of fascism in Spain and Portugal and the prevalence of military dictatorships in Latin America. But of course things changed, now that argument is seen as outdated.

If you want to exclude others its trivially easy to rationalize that but I wanted to test the criteria you were using to exclude Muslims which is why I went on the anti-theism tangent. Based on that logic its remarkably easy to exclude others from the free marketplace of ideas; Marxists, libertarians, racists, people with traditional family values, and certainly many Christian denominations. All can be argued to have an end goal that is intolerant to some out group. If that conception of the free marketplace of ideas is so easily hollowed out I am not sure it has much value to being with.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I'm fairly confident that I entirely understand why you get defensive on here at times, albeit through a (wildly) different lens lol. It's too bad none of us can actually walk a mile in each other's shoes.

I think you've said before that you don't even fit in with a lot of gay guys. If so then I am similar in that I don't really fit in with a lot of Muslims myself. Honestly while I respect a lot of them for having things like close knit families, a culture of success centered around education, and a charitable instinct I am not really that at ease among them. Put another way, if they weren't Muslim I am not sure if I would spend much time around them at all. On the other hand most of my close friends are non-Muslim. I kind of want to expand my social circle a little bit more to include Muslims but it kind of takes some effort. Even though I don't always click with them it is nice to be around your coreligionists every once in a while.

 

[Bald1]

I did answer that question though, literally in the very post you said I was ignoring it.

The logic you're using to exclude Muslims is not new btw, it was once said of Catholics as well. Going back to John Mills it was argued that freedom of religion does not apply to Catholics since they are an inherently unfree religion as they take their marching orders from the Pope. And it was argued that Catholicism prevented democracy based on the resilience of fascism in Spain and Portugal and the prevalence of military dictatorships in Latin America. But of course things changed, now that argument is seen as outdated.

If you want to exclude others its trivially easy to rationalize that but I wanted to test the criteria you were using to exclude Muslims which is why I went on the anti-theism tangent. Based on that logic its remarkably easy to exclude others from the free marketplace of ideas; Marxists, racists, people with traditional family values, and certainly many Christian denominations. All can be argued to have an end goal that is intolerant to some out group. If that conception of the free marketplace of ideas is so easily hollowed out I am not sure it has much value to being with.

You answered the question by using an outlier as an example. We both know that's not you, but rather your contrarian nature talking. Or at least that's how I see it.

Senegal is less than 0.01% of the global Muslim population, so to use that as an example is to use the Rotherham gang members as a representative of the norm. Both disingenuous examples used in an effort to paint a false picture.

As for the example of Catholicism you used? That's spot on. I've compared Islam of today to Christianity of centuries past when it was a global political power. The argument can be made that it still is, especially in the US, but to nowhere near the extent that Islam is in the majority of countries where it is the religion of the majority. And that's why I always say Islam is a bad idea to have in a fee society as long as it's more authoritarian members try to represent it as a whole. The vocal minority tends to set standards until it's put in it's place after all.

Here's a bit of an olive branch - I skimmed over your answer and dismissed it without giving it due consideration. Regardless that Senegal isn't a true representation of a Muslim majority country, but rather a possibility, I should have given it more consideration.