1/3 Californians are on MediCal

[My Spot]

this is just ridiculous, businesses DO submit worker information, if the government doesnt do a good job verifying, why should a business be in the business of verification? I'm working with a business now that hires TONS of mexicans, how the hell should I know if one is illegal or not? We have some guys that barely speak english...... born in america, full legit citizen. Who am I to say he looks illegal? The fantasy is turning business owners into police. We submit paperwork to the IRS/USCIS, not my job to verify anything. If an employee submits an I9, who the fuck am I to care? If I get busted for having illegals, yet provide an I9, why is that my problem? I gave the necessary paperwork. There are anti discrimination laws, I cant assume that anyone is an illegal.

walls have been built, and work. Tell me how high that israely wall is, and why that wouldnt work in america? Concrete is fucken cheap.

Don't get me wrong...if it was up to me, all the troops we still have stationed in Germany and Japan would come home and do rotations along the border. Anyone caught trying to enter illegally would be droned or shot dead (and yes, I agree that's a bit extreme). It's not not gonna happen though, same with building a giant wall. We're not an apartheid state like Israel.

 

[chardog]

But they are americans, isnt that the point of having education and healthcare? to benefit americans?

America needs people to exist after all, and the birth rate of America is still below replacement rate. So America actually needs more babies, not less.

The only concern would be about American culture being overwhelmed by Mexican culture, which its a complete joke, American culture is not a weakass culture like that of european countries, it completely permeates its society, its minorities and the vast majority of the thinking and educated class of foreign countries.

I know it's a crazy idea and all, but we do have an immigration process, and people pay big fees for that process, it creates courses for testing, thus creating jobs and importing income into america. Got birthrate problems? go through the right avenue..... crazy ideas, I know.

 

[chardog]

Don't get me wrong...if it was up to me, all the troops we still have stationed in Germany and Japan would come home and do rotations along the border. Anyone caught trying to enter illegally would be droned or shot dead (and yes, I agree that's a bit extreme). It's not not gonna happen though, same with building a giant wall. We're not an apartheid state like Israel.

I understand that it's a political issue, but I see too many crazies on the board suggest that a concrete wall wont physically work. Build one 20ft high, 20ft below, with watchtowers..... a mile apart? it would take MONTHS for anyone brave enough to build a tunnel underneath, and hours to cover up that hole. Logistically, it would be pretty much impenetrable.

 

[Falsedawn]

with child tax credits, free public schools and health care, you really think these illegals are paying a net tax? Only the rich and well off pay taxes in Cali, the amount of taxes I pay is likely higher than most californian's income.

You act as if people that come here to work dont have babies...... like it's for one reason only, and not possible for another reason....

You bet their having babies in the process, and when they do, they reap benefits. Food programs will give food for both mother and citizen child regardless of mother's status. Do illegal parents provide enough taxes for their child's schooling? Medicaid? not a fat chance.

I really dont give a shit about kids that grow up angle, America has an immigration system in place, that lets in a TON of people. Get in line, pay your fees. Have your babies.

Yes, I do think they pay more than they pull out, and that's not exactly a controversial opinion.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584

Im not sure you understand that the status quo is heavily tilted in favor of the US. The actuary of the SSA said that without illegals paying into Social Security suspense file, it would have dried up in 2009. This is the best case scenario if you're all about the dollars.

Giving a path to citizenship is a purely altruistic choice, because we come out way ahead as is.

 

[Rod1]

The answer is selective, controlled legal immigration. Our economy doesn't need millions of semi-literate laborers.

We are talking about babies here.

 

[vespasian]

In a post-industrial society, barely literate manual laborers with many children benefit a lot more than they contribute.

However, if such people were to push hard their children to succeed academically, the next generation would end up being net contributors to society. This is the case for Asian immigrants.

 

[My Spot]

sure they do, and you and I, however without income tax, you wont get close to filling the gap. Illegal immigrants will be the bottom of the rung types, high useage of benefits, and low contribution.... why in the world would you even attempt to marginalize the issue?

http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

Yeah I know, it's a CNN article. Their numbers are straight from the CBO though.

 

[highkicknomore]

Here's a crazy idea that has nothing to do with immigration.

Have the government verify who qualifies for medical. I know people in the medical industry and some of these being helped out drive brand new cars and expensive purses. Yet won't pay for $3 prescription co pay.

 

[Rod1]

I know it's a crazy idea and all, but we do have an immigration process, and people pay big fees for that process, it creates courses for testing, thus creating jobs and importing income into america. Got birthrate problems? go through the right avenue..... crazy ideas, I know.

Yes, and you import educated people who come in single and with careers, the kind of people that dont have kids.

So unless you are advocating buying babies and putting them in government education centers, the fertility rate will still be an issue.

If you are importing entire families with kids, then you are back at the same issue.

 

[vespasian]

http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

Yeah I know, it's a CNN article. Their numbers are straight from the CBO though.

Myth #3: They drain the system

Undocumented immigrants do not qualify for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and most other public benefits.

(Not a myth after all:

http://www.mercurynews.com/health/c...grants-state-senate-approves-health-care-some )


But anyway, this is disingenuous and besides the point: their many offspring DO qualify for everything. This is the huge financial burden (on schools, hospitals, criminal justice system, etc)

 

[vespasian]

Yes, and you import educated people who come in single and with careers, the kind of people that dont have kids.

So unless you are advocating buying babies and putting them in government education centers, the fertility rate will still be an issue.

If you are importing entire families with kids, then you are back at the same issue.

Of course you import qualified immigrants with their entire families, like Canada does, and you are not back to the 'same issue' at all, because you end up with immigrant kids who excel in school instead of joining gangs.

 

[My Spot]

(Not a myth after all:

http://www.mercurynews.com/health/c...grants-state-senate-approves-health-care-some )

But anyway, this is disingenuous and besides the point: their many offspring DO qualify for everything. This is the huge financial burden (on schools, hospitals, criminal justice system, etc)

It most certainly is at the federal level.
As they should, since they're citizens and all.

Edit: Way to actually read your link.

 

[Rod1]

(Not a myth after all:

http://www.mercurynews.com/health/c...grants-state-senate-approves-health-care-some )


But anyway, this is disingenuous and besides the point: their many offspring DO qualify for everything. This is the huge financial burden (on schools, hospitals, criminal justice system, etc)

Again, the offspring are needed, whether they be sons of illegals or sons of americans, they will still be a burden to the system.

 

[vespasian]

Again, the offspring are needed, whether they be sons of illegals or sons of americans, they will still be a burden to the system.

Sure. But the question is whether carrying this particular burden is a good investment in the future of the nation. If the parents have the cultural inclination to push their kids to succeed academically, then yes. Otherwise, no. Unfortunately, not all cultures value education, and we should be able to control who comes here.

 

[chardog]

Yes, I do think they pay more than they pull out, and that's not exactly a controversial opinion.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584

Im not sure you understand that the status quo is heavily tilted in favor of the US. The actuary of the SSA said that without illegals paying into Social Security suspense file, it would have dried up in 2009. This is the best case scenario if you're all about the dollars.

Giving a path to citizenship is a purely altruistic choice, because we come out way ahead as is.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

Yeah I know, it's a CNN article. Their numbers are straight from the CBO though.

From your own link: Currently, the average unlawful immigrant household costs taxpayers $14,387 per household, according to a recent report by The Heritage Foundation.

they admit it is a drain, yet call it a myth, then add a spin on a wrongly declared myth:

But in its 2013 "Immigration Myths and Facts" report, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce says most economists see providing these benefits as an investment for the future, when these children become workers and taxpayers.
----------------

so they DO cost a lot, 14K a year a person is NOT a negligible amount!

and lol @ the spin as a future investment. Our taxes we pay is for the schools, that is the future investment.

Yes, and you import educated people who come in single and with careers, the kind of people that dont have kids.

So unless you are advocating buying babies and putting them in government education centers, the fertility rate will still be an issue.

If you are importing entire families with kids, then you are back at the same issue.

these are assumptions that the imported dont have kids, and that's all it is really, just an assumption. There are incentive measures our government can do to promote child rearing, like different tax brackets and tax breaks. If I put my kids through private schools I should get a tax break and at the same time, less burden on the government (less public school students).

 

[My Spot]

But it would also create even more tax revenue by way of income and payroll taxes. That could reduce deficits by $175 billion over the first 10 years and by at least $700 billion in the second decade.

Way to miss that part which is in the very same paragraph. Nice strawman too.
And the Heritage Foundation over the CBO? Come on, man.

 

[chardog]

But it would also create even more tax revenue by way of income and payroll taxes. That could reduce deficits by $175 billion over the first 10 years and by at least $700 billion in the second decade.

Way to miss that part which is in the very same paragraph. Nice strawman too.
And the Heritage Foundation over the CBO? Come on, man.

dude, it's your link, and payroll taxes are figured into that 14K figure!

dont blame me man, it's your link, I just went out of my trouble to verify it :icon_chee

 

[My Spot]

"...according to a recent report by the Heritage Foundation." :redface: Keep moving those goalposts though.
Let me guess, you're one of those conservatives who think the CBO is "biased."

 

[Rod1]

these are assumptions that the imported dont have kids, and that's all it is really, just an assumption. There are incentive measures our government can do to promote child rearing, like different tax brackets and tax breaks. If I put my kids through private schools I should get a tax break and at the same time, less burden on the government (less public school students).

Its not an assumption, virtually everywhere and in every culture, education makes people have less kids.

Thats happening even in immigrant exporting countries, in Mexico the fertility rate is barely above replacement.

 

[chardog]

"according to a recent report by the Heritage Foundation." :redface:
Let me guess, you're one of those conservatives who think the CBO is "biased."

I understand, I was just quoting YOUR link, go inside it. They were doing a mythbusting, but didnt directly mythbust, but instead, did a projection into the future. They dont disagree with the 14K figure, and they dont provide context.

Say we brought/incentivised our citizens to reproduce. What would the amount of payroll taxes would they provide? These projections are silly. It's like I have a bunch of kids and tell my wife that in the future, they will take care of me.... vs if I adopt a bunch of kids, in the future, they will take care of me.... that's a projection that I cant really predict well. If some of the kids die, laws change, economy tanks, can all effect silly projections way into the future. It's silly really. For sure, those kids will cost me a bundle NOW. Agree?