Opinion “Patriotism is the exact opposite of nationalism"

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by phoenixikki, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. Bargey

    Bargey Silver Belt

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    Nationalism is advocating for your own country above all others. That’s your duty as a political leader or any national politician.

    Same as a parent must put their child first before all others.

    Same as an individual must put himself or herself’s interests above all others (with possible exception of children / spouse)

    This is how life is supposed to be. Patriotism is the deep, personal love of and pride of country, nationalism is the public expression of that love with the actions that express that interest. They go hand in hand. People with no pride or love of country will express no desire to put its interest first.

    Macron is a globalist who is clearly an anti-patriot. I have no idea if he hates France but he certainly has no love for it.
     
  2. JDragon

    JDragon DOX News Anchor Platinum Member

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    I'd be glad if that was the case. Obama was the leader of the free world. Bush was the leader of the free world despite Iraq. Clinton and all other presidents since WW2 have been.

    Trump made it abundantly clear he is not interested in Europe as a partner, and that goes beyond NATO budgeting. It's up to the United States to decide - if the benefits of a common cultural and military sphere for U.S. power projection and soft power are not recognized any more, that's their prerogative. But let's not pretend this will not have an impact on the relationship between Europe and the U.S. or that the American empire will continue to exist in the same way.

    Of course the U.S. is, by a large margin, the most powerful country in the world, and it will remain to be for the foreseeable time. And of course it speaks to the sad state of affairs if I proclaim that a French president is the main spokesperson for the West. But I stand by that. Donald Trump has willingly isolated the U.S., apparently this is also backed by American voters, so that is fine. I also think Europe needs to become more self-reliant, which is why I agree with Macron's call for a European army.

    @TheGreatA Macron's domestic situation is fragile, yes. That doesn't really touch my point, though.
     
  3. JDragon

    JDragon DOX News Anchor Platinum Member

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    This is a flawed definition in my opinion. Where I agree is that Patriotism doesn't imply putting down others. Nationalist foreign policy also negates collective gains and emphasizes relative gains, classical neorealism. There always must be a winner and a loser in every transaction. If something benefits both parties, but A more than B, then B should not do it under that logic, even if it's worse off then.

    NATO as a collective security alliance is already a deviation from nationalist logic. You trade away part of your security and fight someone else's war in the hope that they will also fight yours. The logic behind it is that everyone will be better off under this collective agreement, but some will gain more from this arrangement than others.
     
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  4. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Silver Belt

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    A leader who can barely lead his country, can hardly be expected to be a leader of the "free world", whatever that means. It is not as if Macron himself has spoken in favour of bringing US and Europe together, he has spoken of division just as Trump has been. His criticisms of America have been a major point throughout his political campaigns.

    He is, at best, a Europe first leader, not the West first.

    There were far harsher and more divisive presidents than Trump, for example, do we forget Bush proclaiming that all who did not stand by America's choice to invade Iraq, would be regarded as America's enemies? That would have also meant Germany, at the time.

    The only reason why people focus so particularly on Trump, is because of the power they give to the media's depictions of him, their greedy, click-bait, sensationalist journalism. In reality he's carving out a whole host of beneficial deals to both Americans and Europeans. And his vision of global politics, rudimentary as it may be, is far more wholesome than that of Macron's. For example, he opposes China, instead of bending over backwards for it.

    If he could get rid of trash partners like Saudi Arabia, and criticize Israel's actions when it is warranted, and get over the Cold War fetish with Iran, he would be a great leader for the "free world".
     
  5. JDragon

    JDragon DOX News Anchor Platinum Member

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    Point taken regarding the Bush doctrine. And yes, I agree in China. It's why I think Trump's stance on trade and NATO hurts the cause elsewhere. The timing is off, China would better be opposed together.

    And regarding what it means: to me it means being the champion of the ''Western" cause. It sure meant more during the Cold War.
     
  6. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Silver Belt

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    Trump's stance on NATO is warranted. NATO members made a deal, to increase spending, and they haven't lived up to that deal. Trump is cracking heads to make sure that people live up to commitments. And it has been working. By doing that, he has made NATO stronger, not weaker. More money has been flowing towards the NATO cause, since his ascension.

    NATO just held a massive military demonstration next to Russia's borders here in Nothern Europe, which forced Putin to hold a military demonstration of his own. We have rarely seen such shows of strength in the past.

    Nobody right now can truly claim to be a "champion" for the Western cause. Macron is a deluded man who is every bit as hostile to the press as Trump is, difference is that his behaviour doesn't get reported beyond his own country.

    Merkel would have had more of a claim than Macron, but she's already going out of the door and her power is weakening.

    As for someone who will be standing up to Western liberties, you'll probably have to be waiting for a while. None of the above ought to be regarded as champions for liberty, not with their hostile attitudes towards free speech.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
    sangreporsangre and Seaside like this.
  7. IngaVovchanchyn

    IngaVovchanchyn Titanium Belt Platinum Member

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    Would doesn't change the meaning of your statement at all. You weren't throwing out a hypothetical. You were asserting that Macron was the leader of the free world because American foreign policy was compromised by being too close to Russia. It doesn't hold up to even a cursory factual analysis.
     
  8. Cuauhtemoc

    Cuauhtemoc Silver Belt

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    Russia has some very legitimate claim to Crimea, it was part of Russia, then the Soviet Union, then it was given to Ukraine when it was part of the Soviet Union and remained in Ukraine when the USSR collapsed. However, fuck Russia. They had no reason to invade Georgia.
     
  9. rokzilla

    rokzilla Green Belt

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    I wouldn’t say he isn’t interested in being partners. The trade deficit and amount we pay to NATO is completely skewed in Europes favor and has been. Partners are supposed to be equal. If Europe works with Trump, I think we could still be fine. Even if you hate Trump to the core and are against everything he stands for, Trade and NATO are no brainers to support him on.
     
  10. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    They dont start wars because they are afraid of the USA.
     
  11. glenwo2

    glenwo2 Twisted Glen

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    lmfao at calling a Frenchman a Leader of anything! <Dany07>
     
  12. Xuh

    Xuh Red Belt

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    No he didn't.

    Naturally I googled him, checked his wiki and my suspicion was also confirmed.
     
  13. Voodoo_Child906

    Voodoo_Child906 Black Belt

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  14. Xuh

    Xuh Red Belt

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    Cool av br0, Sankara is one of my favorite nationalists.
     
  15. luckyshot

    luckyshot The ONLY iPotWR Platinum Member

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    No. Patriotism means, I love my country and want what is best for it, especially the achievement of its professed ideals.

    Nationalism is, I'll cheer for my flag no matter what.

    PATRIOTISM comes from the Latin root pater, meaning Father.

    The difference between patriotism and nationalism is the difference between a GOOD parent-- who fosters and supports actions and habits that are healthy-- and a "just there" parent-- who lets his kids eat as much junk food as they want and calls it "love."

    Put it another way: unconditional love is no love at all.

    No. Trump's definition of nationalism is: "We're America! We'll do whatever we damn well please! Pew pew pew!"

    That's pretty much what his supporters support, and what civilized people reject.

    I don't see any "misunderstanding."
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  16. tramendous

    tramendous Silver Belt

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    most countries that annex others refer to a territorial claim. for example, Iraq claimed Kuwait on the basis that Kuwait had been separated from them by unfair British Colonialism.

    Russia could in theory, claim that central Asia should be a part of their territory since they owned that territory before too.
     
  17. Armbars

    Armbars Oops!

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    I respect these words.
     
  18. Armbars

    Armbars Oops!

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    luckyshot likes this.
  19. faustian

    faustian I'M NOT A MONSTER Platinum Member

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    I'm no expert in Trumpian linguistics but if I had to guess I'd say his interpretation of "nationalism" could be generally described as a populist anti-globalism ideology centered on protectionist economic policy and sovereigntist foreign/immigration policy. It's pretty easy to imagine how this would be a direct affront to EU ideology
     
  20. Victor Maitland

    Victor Maitland Banned Banned

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    what he said

    Macron is a globalist beta male .
     
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