Discussion in 'Worldwide MMA Discussion' started by leto1776, Feb 6, 2020.
without dazn money and no live gate bellator is back to being a money pit.
He's right. If you had a real refutatio, you would use more than a gif
"Cutting down on the roster is not an alien thing for the UFC to do, but this year has been different. More than 70 fighters have already been released in 2020, and per Dana White's comments, 60 more are to come."
It seems like there are more cuts this year. Does anyone have hard data on this?
Someone might have something but it's so hard to track. They got guys under contract no one has ever heard of and haven't even fought in the UFC yet and some of those guys might not fight. Bottom of the roster is alway a revolving door. I do think they may end up cutting more than normal, but that could just be a different mindset behind the scenes of how many guys on the roster they want to deal with on a yearly basis. Just trim some of the fat off. Revenue is better than ever even with no gates so for anyone to just assume it's all about money and poor business is probably wrong. Higher price guys like Yoel's of the world are probably being handled exactly the way the UFC has been doing it for years. Everyone eventually becomes expandable for the UFC.
P.S.: For anyone knocking the UFC for letting a guy like Yoel go just take a moment and look at the track record the UFC has when letting these guys go. Very few find much success. The UFC's brass have a very good eye for when to let guys go. They rarely get burned. Bader is probably a guy that has found the most success after being let go. Even in that situation he had like 20 fights under the UFC at that point and fought basically everyone in his weight class.
What’s all this showtime talk? I thought bellabore was going to cbs sports?
Wake up, sheeple. We’re looking at a round of cuts that has a 99 percent survival rate.
Not true at all; Bader, Phil Davis, Rory, Larkin, Fitch, Moose, Benson, Tumenov, all had plenty of success. Basically all of their high profile releases in the last 5ish years have gone on to have success, the only ones who did poorly were ones who had already been looking terrible in the UFC like Branch, and nobody cares about prelim guys who get cut or expected them to do well. There's no evidence of them having some great insight into when a seemingly strong fighter is "done" it's just that the market outside the ufc (for high profile fights) is difficult for anyone to have serious success in period, and if you wait long enough everyone starts losing so you can look back and say I told you so. The only way you could spin any of these guys as not having success is if you've got an unreasonable standard of success like having to capture a major belt (of which there's around 1.5 per division outside the ufc, many of which are rarely defended), in which case most released fighters having success is just a logical impossibility and would also leave 95% of the UFC roster as a bust.
I thought CBS Sports Network was sort of a temporary bridge. To what? I'm not sure. Showtime? ViacomCBS is rolling out Paramount+ to replace CBS All Access so maybe we see some Bellator on there? But that begs the question, why pull Bellator off Paramount Network if it was going to end up on Paramount+ anyway?
Rory is 3-2-1 and left Bellator and he dropped his last two in the UFC. He technically has a losing record in last 8 fights(3-4-1). Gifted a title shot after going 1-2 and some thought Lima won that fight. Got literally destroyed by Moose. Gave a speech that was basically my heart isn't in this anymore and is probably the biggest reason Bellator and him separated. How is that finding success?
Phil Davis and Moose have been fine. Bader by far found the most success.
Larkin..came in to Bellator and dropped his first two fights. Been doing fine since then against lesser comp but also has been the king of decisions lately. I won't call that great success. Based on the hype around him at certain points of his career he shouldn't be eeking out decisions against some of these guys.
Fitch....Since he left the UFC his only performance worth even mentioning is a draw with Rory. He left the UFC and got choked out by Burkman in like 30 secs. Burkman has won like two fight since then and lost like 8. Any win Fitch got was against sub par opponents or past their prime guys like himself. When the UFC let Fitch go he is like all these elder state men that have basically reached the top and he is on the fast track of going down hill. He isn't going to climb back up. Sure he can beat a few solid guys but any legit top 10ers he is gonna have a lot of problems. He had great career and him hanging around longer has been a mixed bag like many guys like himself.
Benson....is 5-5 in Bellator. Once again way below Benson's standards previously.
Guys like Tumenov and Horiguchi(back to Japan) I think had more of mutual parting of ways than getting just flat out cut. Maybe Tumenov did just get cut and wanted to stay but I'm not sure since I don't remember any other orgs really going after him.
Point of it is a lot of guys ran their course in the UFC and when they let them go they were more or less done from reaching the top in the UFC. UFC can only have so many gatekeepers more or less. Woodley is another guy I could see the UFC dropping that may find some short term success. Jacare might be another. But once again these are guys that aren't going to be in the mix for title shots ever again. The biggest key is none of these guys have helped an org take a large step forward and that is part of the UFC's model of letting them go. Guys that can move needles they keep even if they are losing at the end of their careers and cost big money.
Cause paramount network has been giving people the 3 hour west coast tape delay screw job since they were spike tv with the UFC in the mid 2000s. Bellabore is a California based company... yet people in California with cable tv got the events 3 fucking hours delayed... so reruns of ink master could be on while the fights were actually happening.
This horse shit went on for way too long. Viacom been showing tape delayed mma for nearly 15 years and it’s beyond bellabores control as long as they were on paramount
Aside from Fitch and maybe Tumenov, none of the guys you mentioned were cut. All of them fought out their contracts and sought out free agency. Similar to what happened to Michael Chandler, fought out his contract and Bellator did not want to pay what he was asking for. Yoel, on the other hand, was cut; he still had 3 fights left on his contract and was released before that.
Now, of course, if the UFC really wanted them they would have renegotiated for the money they were asking but the UFC didnt see the value in them anymore.
Well, that's kind of the point of it all. When the UFC doesn't want you or not willing to match an offer they are in a way sending a poison pill to the that org. in a lot of cases. In other words you don't fit your pay to draw ratio they have for you, someone else can swallow that.
Look at Bellator right now, it's easy to see they have spent more money on the product than ever before and despite that they have the lowest avg ratings ever. It isn't liked they slipped 20% since Coker took over or even 50% they literally went from around 700K to around 275k area for an avg. How that doesn't get someone fired or a major overhaul of the product is a mystery to me. If anyone cares, look at the numbers more closely and the peaks and valleys of the ratings. It isn't that the Bader's of world don't draw fans into the product, it's the shitty fights leading up to it that no one takes the time to care about. Which probably also hurts that peak number on some level. This why I keep saying Coker's use of this roster is almost embarrassing. We shouldn't be getting event after event of ho hum cards at best followed by an good looking card on paper. Coker is lucky if he gives fans 4 events a year that get people talking on any level beyond these forums. He has condition MMA fans to more or less tune in only for a handful of fights a year because of his piss poor management of the roster throughout the year. Even MMA podcasts, websites, radio, etc barely even mention Bellator outside of a few events a year. They get the most run when they sign a guy or lose a guy it seems. Which is sad when they have the talent to put together some very solid cards throughout the year that would get more eyes on the product.
Its not always the whole pay to draw ratio issue, Mousasi, Rory, Bader, Davis, Machida, Pettis, and Rumble are examples of this. The UFC wanted to keep all of them but they were not willing to match outside offers, they were all still either prime fighters or had at least some good fights left in them. You cant tell me Rory, Mousasi, Rumble, Bader, Davis, Johns were passed their prime and the UFC let them go because of that. The UFC did not renew their contract because they couldnt continue paying peanuts to them and they all seeked free agency. Now of course, if the UFC really wants to keep a fighter then they will make an offer they cant refuse but lately they are not willing to spend as they did before.
Its hard to gage how good or bad Coker is doing. You cant base his work on viewership because the DAZN deal made them a lot of money and at the same time hid their total viewership. Plus, he just re-signed a long term contract to Bellator so im assuming Viacom/CBS sees something in him. I dont like the whole matchmaking, marketing, and Bellator being a retirement home for former UFC fighters but they have made some serious improvements, particularly rosterwise, lately. Having said that, Im not a big fan of Coker so I wouldnt mind seeing someone else heading the organization.
Less people watching = more profit?? You've got to be the dumbest of the dumb to believe this shit.
You got half the number of viewers than you had in 2017, hemorrhaging over $100 miliion in debt, just signed a bunch of UFC rejects.............
but your company is killing it financially the last two years.
Suuuuuuure, Scott "Low Energy" Coker!!! LMAOOOOOO
Ben Askren was right about them talking about selling. What you see is Bellator cooking the books.
They aren't Bleeding money, to start all these streaming platforms lose money and they expect that. Covid certainly didn't help with the stoppage of sports and potentially stoppage of subscriptions for a bit, however. The Canelo deal was just a bad deal this early for them and Canelo still chose to go back to them on a fight by fight basis.
Think netflix has always just been raking in? Disney is losing money every day on Hulu right now. Disney+ if i last recall is still losing money and not supposed to turn a profit until 2024.
You gotta spend money on content in the beginning before subscription numbers go up. They were never going to have enough subscription numbers to turn positive this soon, especially when they were only in like 7 countries. They opened up in 192 more countries on Dec 1st. I expect things to look very very differently come this time next year and by 2023. Especially when in some countries you can get it for €1.99 a month.
Why won't the UFC pay them if they wanted them.......they easily have the resources to do it???
The main reason they let them walk is simply they had value in mind of what fighter "X" is worth to the UFC. If they can't get a deal done near that they don't care, they'll let you walk. A big part of that equation is your drawing power. Which includes things like willingness to market yourself (big down fall for someone like Rory and Mousasi). Bader and Davis two guys that fans don't really care about regardless of their ability. Let other orgs over pay for their services and see little in return for it. Bellators average ratings have basically remained flat with these signings.
Rumble is the one guy that I do think a lot of UFC fans want to see. But I think the was really told to head to Bellator because of his weed business and his stance on that. UFC can't just change the rules about weed and someone at his age can't sit on the sidelines over stupid infractions for that.
I love all the signings Bellator did here, but like you I fell Coker just f's it up. He spreads fights out to thin and events have no drawing powering usually and if they do they have like one match that gets any attention. When you have these guys you need to start stacking some of them up on the same card and get people talking before the event and want to watch it.
The UFC does have the resources to keep any fighter they wanted, but lately the UFC isnt keeping fighters with large contracts, like Romero, Dodson, Formiga, etc., because they see more value in keeping DWCS fighters who will fight for less money. The UFC believes that people will tune in to watch the UFC regardless of who is fighting, so why keep fighters with large contracts?
As far as Coker goes, I agree 100% with you. I believe Coker is a solid, stand up guy, who will always do right by his fighters but that will always be his downfall. A fight promoter needs to be like Arum, Eddie Hearn, Dana, etc., maybe they are pieces of shit but they get shit done. People can talk shit about Dana all day long, and they may be right, but he always gets shit done. I dont think Coker has the vision to propel Bellator into a serious competitor against the UFC. Coker seems content with doing OK and surviving, when he should be concentrating in gaining ground on the UFC. How can he ever gain ground with horrible matchmaking and not having an own identity? Bellator has a great roster but Coker always finds a way to fuck up cards or do horrible matchmaking. Every time there is some buzz around Bellator, they find a way to fuck it up and never follow through. For example, when they were the first major promotion to host an event in France, instead of making a big buzz and a badass event, they somehow thought Kongo vs Johnson was worthy of being the fight to be introduced to French fans. Then they managed to lose half the event due to coved, and later botched the event even further by splitting the event in two and thin out card. Or when people were talking about Lima being the best WW in the world, he matched him up in an unwinnable fight against Mousasi at MW and lost all his momentum. Also, he put up a FWGP but thins the shit out of it by putting 1 tournament fight per event, instead of doing entire events to get the tournament finished. He later signed Yoel Romero and Anthony Johnson but decided to not have events for the next 2 months. Like, Jesus Christ are they ever going to gain any momentum? I'm excited for a LHW GP but I can also guarantee he will drag that tournament all throughout 2021 and into 2022 and lose any momentum they could possibly build. I can guarantee you, if the UFC wanted to do a GP they could get it done fast, instead of thinning out every card like Coker does. A lot of the times it seems like they are just going through the motions and they just put shit together for the sake of putting events. If Bellator ever wants to be a serious competitor they need to have badass years with a lot of buzz going around them, and they have the roster to do so, but unfortunately they do not have the leadership to accomplish it.
it always funny to see these bellator shills do mental gymnastics to explain 50k viewers per bellator event is somehow good for them
Dazn just ended their bellator deal.
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