Zhongguo Zhen Gongfu (CFC). Pro-Sanda revival

You can't deny that pride rules is much less favorable to submission artists.
Yes I can. Their were certainly more submissions than finishes by stomps and kicks to downed opponents. The only people that got finished like that were cans thrown at the Chute Boxe guys, save Rampage vs Shogun but Page was hurt on the feet.

I never said you had to be the BEST at everything...
 
On the other hand, it is thanks to state organizations, China can even compete competetively in the world combat sports scene. It was these trained atheletes and those early Sanda vs other style matches that drove many fans to take up combat sports and it was these atheletes that trained people in styles like Sanda and boxing.

I think elite Sanda fighters would have done really well in Pride rules. Pride rules is virtually just an extension of Sanda rules. Soccer kicks and stomps just flows smoothly with the Sanda takedowns (where one remain standing) and because of all the knees on the ground, Sanda guys can just be good wrestlers with some basic submission defense. I think Bao Ligao would have easily climbed to the elite Pride divisions when Pride was around. Bao Ligao had one of the best wrestlings in the 75 kg/+ division in China; training in Mongolian wrestling since a kid, and he virtually never got taken down (only Liu Hailong did it a few times through fast wrestling), he also had lots of Judo and submission training in the early days of AOW. His striking is also top notch and arguably better than Cung Le's (I think he has more power).

I never understood why these new MMA organizations like RUFF in China adopted unified UFC rules, they probably have no idea about MA; Pride rules suits Sanda fighters so much more.

The Sanda fighters that I have seen in MMA haven't impressed me much. At the end of the day, it comes down to the individual athlete how well they can transition from one combat sport to the other. The best Sanda fighter might not be the best to make the transition to MMA. I'm quite sure Ernesto Hoost couldn't have done as well as Cro Cop in MMA, even though he was a better kick-boxer.

I don't share your admiration for the government lead organization. It's great the government support sports, but they are also limiting the development of the athletes to compete in a martial art of their own choice. Like you say yourself, the best Sanda athletes are not allowed to transition to other martial arts. That's just borderline slavery.

Which brings me back to what I said earlier that the Chinese are just doing Sanda to have something THEY are in control of, where they can make sure China have the best fighters. Sanda is not a traditional martial art in China, I would rather just see athletes in China join already established sports like kickboxing and compete on the international stage than try and reinvent the wheel just to "have face".
 
Yes I can. Their were certainly more submissions than finishes by stomps and kicks to downed opponents. The only people that got finished like that were cans thrown at the Chute Boxe guys, save Rampage vs Shogun but Page was hurt on the feet.

I never said you had to be the BEST at everything...

And there are more ground and pound finishes than submission finishes even in the UFC.
More importantly, the total submission finishes are irrelevant.
What the fighter's styles are is what matters. Submission artists are obviously going to uses submissions, but we are not talking about them, we are talking about standup artists.
Now lets look at guys who are primarily standup artists:
Shogun only had 1 finish by submission in his entire career and five finishes by stomps and soccer kicks and that's not even including several other ones, such as against Overeem where soccer kicks were essential to his victory even if it didn't directly led to the finish.

In another word, 1/3 of Shogun's finishes were tied to soccer kicks and stomps.

Wanderlei Silva also had five finishes by soccer kicks or stomps, and only 1 by submission, and two by ground and pound.

So, no I simply do not agree with you that Pride rule doesn't make a difference, and that's why Shogun is constantly complaining about UFC rules.
 
The Sanda fighters that I have seen in MMA haven't impressed me much. At the end of the day, it comes down to the individual athlete how well they can transition from one combat sport to the other. The best Sanda fighter might not be the best to make the transition to MMA. I'm quite sure Ernesto Hoost couldn't have done as well as Cro Cop in MMA, even though he was a better kick-boxer.


The vast majority of "Sanda" fighters in Chinese MMA are either rejects that didn't even make it to provincial champion level or club member fighters who never competed seriously in Sanda. They aren't even really sanda fighters despite having that under their style name. Most of them are BJJ based fighters with mediocre striking and bjj. Take a look at Yang Jianping, one of the better Sanda fighters in Chinese MMA, despite being called a Sanda fighter, he had 6 submission finishes and only 2 KO finishes. That IS NOT what I call a Sanda based fighter, his primary style is grappling/bjj. The same goes with Zhang Tiequan, who only has 3 KO finishes and 12 submission finishes. He is primarily a BJJ fighter, plain and simple, and Sanda is nothing but a supplement.
Most of the "sanda" fighters in Chinese MMA are primarily grappling focused, they do not fight like Sanda fighters and no where representative of Sanda. Watch Bao Ligao, Salikhov Muslim and Bateer's fights, they are real Sanda fighters, as most of their finishes are KOs. Cung Le is also a primarily Sanda fighter. These Chinese MMA fighters are just that, MMA fighters with mediocre skills.

Ernest Hoost is a bad example. Many elite Sanda fighters already have wrestling skills, or at least the base, they just lack a ground skill. Whereas K 1 fighters have to learn grappling from scratch. You never see a fighter with bad grappling win MMA, but there are plenty of fighters with bad ground games, but good wrestling winning MMA titles and become elites. Some style transfers better than others, this is nothing new and wrestling transfers better than most sports.
Not all Sanda fighters can transfer, but there are a lot more that can than kickboxers, especially those who are more known for their wrestling.
I think guys like Bao Ligao, Geriletu, and Liu Hailong could transfer well. Today, people like Zhang Kun and Bateer would probably also do well. Dong Wenfei would not, and Zhang Kaiyin and Fang Bian might do ok with some adjustment.



I don't share your admiration for the government lead organization. It's great the government support sports, but they are also limiting the development of the athletes to compete in a martial art of their own choice. Like you say yourself, the best Sanda athletes are not allowed to transition to other martial arts. That's just borderline slavery.

It's just a different system, and there are good and bads, that's it. Sanda fighters in China aren't any more "slaves" than UFC fighters. They can easily leave the national team if they want, no one is forcing them to stay. How is that any different from UFC contract fighters not allowed to fight in other organizations? The benefits one gets from staying in the Sanda team is simply greater than other pro-sports. That is the reality. You are just being arrogant if you think everyone wants to fight in kickboxing or MMA. They don't.



Which brings me back to what I said earlier that the Chinese are just doing Sanda to have something THEY are in control of, where they can make sure China have the best fighters. Sanda is not a traditional martial art in China, I would rather just see athletes in China join already established sports like kickboxing and compete on the international stage than try and reinvent the wheel just to "have face".

Umm, no. Original Sanda was created in 1979 just so China can have a full contact sport, Sanshou as a sport actually began since the 1930s in the Republic. Sanda versus other matches didn't begin until the 1990s, it was NOT the reason Sanda was created. If you think so, you are putting way too much importance to other styles. The primary focus of the Chinese Sanda team is to win the Chinese national games (Olympics), not against other styles. Only casual Chinese fans care about that. Why do people just assume that Sanda fighters wants to fight in MMA or kickboxing and be pitted against other styles? There are only a handful that really fight in these; kickboxing is more popular, but even here, only Fang Bian and Dong Wenfei really made the full transition. Bateer and Bai Jingbin occasionally fights and Zhang Kaiyin very rarely fights in kickboxing, and the best Sanda fighters today, like Zhang Kun (the best in the 75 kg) and Huang Lei never even fought in kickboxing since they won the Sanda national champions. These guys have their own sport, and people should stop assuming that they all want to fight in some other sport when the majority clearly don't care about anything but Sanda.
 
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It's just a different system, and there are good and bads, that's it.

Are you by anyway Chinese? That's such a Chinese thing to say.

Probably the most tiresome thing to read on these forums are people claiming that X fighter from Y sport could do oh so well in Z sport. Especially when it's never going to happen. It's just pure speculation, no proof, and a ton of excuses.

The Sanda organization and the way things work in China are limiting the development of other martial arts in China. The fighters there don't really have much choice. You can't even compare that with how things work with the UFC. The MA market in the West is completely open. Athletes can easily go back and forth between organizations when their contract is over. UFC often have fighters leave the organization and come back again at a later stage. This happens in a market with competing organization and not in a non democratic government controlled market.

I don't assume anything about what Sanda fighters want, it seems you do though. Why are you against them having more choice? Why shouldn't other MA sports get the same support as Sanda in China? Get equal chance to grow.
 
Are you by anyway Chinese? That's such a Chinese thing to say.

I'm not a citizen nor did I grew up there, however I trained in Chinese Sanda facilities by several members from the national Sanda team, my coach, Liu Xinghu was placed 2nd place in the national competition in 2004 in 75 KG and I know the system far more than you. I'm in fact being toned down and polite about your comment; to be more blunt, I simply don't think you know what you are talking about when you said the government lead organization is limiting the development of athletes. The fact is, without government facilities, none of China's athletes would be even half decent and successful as they are today, and China would just be like India, a third tier sports nation without any athletic accomplishments.


Probably the most tiresome thing to read on these forums are people claiming that X fighter from Y sport could do oh so well in Z sport. Especially when it's never going to happen. It's just pure speculation, no proof, and a ton of excuses.

It's ironic that you would say this when you have no respect for Sanda as a sport and simply want these fighters to transfer over...
But its still happening, and we do see some top Sanda fighters entering other sports, such as Fang Bian, Dong Wenfei, Salikhov Muslim, etc. and since this is just a forum, speculation is just a pass time entertainment similar to gambling and we like to test the validity of our theories. That's all. I just want to make the comment that the top Chinese Sanda talents hasn't entered MMA, and the vast majority of these MMA fighters representing Sanda in RUFF haven't even made it to provincial championship, and that's a fact.


The Sanda organization and the way things work in China are limiting the development of other martial arts in China.

I'm sorry, but you are just pulling things out of your ass right now. The Sanda organization is certainly not limiting the development of other martial arts in China. I don't know what basis you even derived this conclusion from when the opposite is in fact the case. The Sanda organization in fact pushed the development of combat sports in China. After the Sanda matches against other styles, Chinese people are more and more interested in other combat sports like Muay Thai and kickboxing. The amount of Muay Thai, kickboxing, and MMA gyms multiplied in the past decades thanks to the exposure Chinese got from Sanda fighters participating in these events. Why aren't kickboxing and MMA as developed? Because government facilities are more professional and creates top level fighters, those private clubs that symbolizes the "free developments" you talk about only create second and third tier fighters. There is nothing that prevents capitalistic development of private gyms, they just aren't as good as the state sponsored ones.



The fighters there don't really have much choice. You can't even compare that with how things work with the UFC. The MA market in the West is completely open. Athletes can easily go back and forth between organizations when their contract is over. UFC often have fighters leave the organization and come back again at a later stage. This happens in a market with competing organization and not in a non democratic government controlled market. I don't assume anything about what Sanda fighters want, it seems you do though. Why are you against them having more choice?

You are right, you can't compare them, the UFC is in fact much worse. The Chinese Wushu Association don't bind their fighters with legal contracts and they only prevent fighters from fighting in other places while they are actively training under the association; the UFC holds their fighters in contracts and doesn't even release fighters who wants to quit, look at how it fucked up people's careers like Wanderlei and Cung Le.


There is nothing that prevents Sanda fighters from simply quitting the national team and starting their own gyms and clubs and participate in any professional sports; there isn't a law that binds them like the UFC or Thai gyms. They just don't because the training facilities sponsored by the state is much better (although clubs are slowly improving). Plenty of Sanda fighters took a break from the association, but most just can't hang with the top talent when they return, especially after a long layoff. They chose to remain in the national team because that's where the best training, facilities, and benefits are.


Sanda isn't an Olympic sport, so there is no pressure by the associations for the athletes to stay and compete for China. Even if they are on the national team, fighters often participate in professional matches anyways. Why do you think guys like Bateer and Zhang Kaiyin fights in kickboxing and MMA events? You think that the Martial Association doesn't know about this? No. They are free to fight when they have off time and they simply puts Sanda competitions above the other ones. The fact is, without the Martial Association, these fighters wouldn't even reach the level that they are in now, so fighting in other combat sports won't even be something we should be discussing.
Are fighters completely free? No. But lets not pretend that this is a unique Chinese thing, Thai gyms also control their fighters to an extent, but Chinese fighters at least has the option to quit and there isn't a law to restrict their options. You are delusional if you think the Chinese Wushu association controls all the combat sport markets. The Wu Lingfeng and RUFF are completely independent organizations and the former is bigger professionally.



Why shouldn't other MA sports get the same support as Sanda in China? Get equal chance to grow.


Because Sanda is a national sport and kickboxing and MMA aren't. Is this really a difficult thing to comprehend? Government funding is limited and they are not going to waste money in professional sports that they don't care about. Also, boxing, TKD, and Judo receives even more funding than Sanda because they are Olympic sports. So there are plenty of support for other MA, just not the ones you want.
 
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I really do believes Sanda and wrestling are the best base for MMA, because you already have two major part of MMA covered (Takedown and Striking).

i mean outside UFC we already see Sanda fighter making a successful transition.

and Cung lee entered mma way to late.
 
Here is a prove that a higher ranked Sanda fighter with minimum MMA training doing well in Chinese MMA and that the best Sanda fighters could probably easily beat the current Chinese MMA champions if they are serious about MMA.
Baosheriguleng vs Zhang Lipeng



Some people might have heard of Zhang Lipeng fighting in the UFC; he is one of the top MMA fighters in China. Baoshe, with almost no MMA training and in his second fight, defeated Zhang and outwrestled him.

Bao's best accomplishment in Sanda is ranking 5th in 2010 Sanda National competition and 2nd in the National Championship game (a slightly less prestigious competition than the National competition. In the All China Games (the most stacked Sanda competition), Bao only got 6th.

In his match with Zhang Kun, the current king of 75 KG, Bao was handily outstruck and slightly outwrestled.
 
Ya the whole "MMA is more realistic" argument is so retarded. It's a combat SPORT with rules and limitations...
more realistic than muay thai will ever be.

Thais get taken down like a stack of jengas falling in mma fights when they attempt their "good" clinch game. haha
 
There's no reason that China can't be successful in MMA. China has produced top leveled wrestlers, judokas, boxers and kickboxers. They just need good jiujitsu and some good MMA camps. Hell they only need some jiu jitsu for getting up off the ground and they could probably make it to the top just by utilizing the sprawl and brawl tactic.
 
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No disrespect to the athletes or the art, but I really can't enjoy watching Sanda.

I'd much rather see K-1 rules become more popular in China and I'd like to see more Chinese fighters on the international stage.

It's strange to me that you see Chinese fighters do so well against top level competition in K-1 rules at the shows they do in China but then we don't get to see that talent on international shows.

The whole Sanda thing has always come off as political to me. The Chinese just want to have their own thing I guess. The Chinese perception of sports is that you compete for the honor of the party/motherland. What better way to just invent your own martial art that only you really compete in to maintain face and stay number one.

Dude, the way you just wrote your response to this thread is exactly how i feel. You just worded it better, and werent enraged. This why I cant watch WLF or other Chinese martial art circuit, it seems just wrapped up in propaganda! I've meet countless pro china fans for sanda and sanshou, they get beligerent when you mention anything like this. "China best China". But KUN LUN is the shit in my opinion. Who ever runs KUN LUN are boss.
 
Pro-Sanda is indeed hard to generate mass interest as the promotion is about "sanda" and not about many martial arts like K 1. It's also not as rooted in the culture as MT. However, I really promote adopting the unified MT-Sanda rules for a professional organization (I would also add 3 points for high level throws to draw both wrestling based fighters in and for visual affects). It can also draw fighters from other disciplines like MT and even standup based MMA fighters to compete. This way, we have a pure standup organization that is far more complete in the weapons you can use in standup than K 1 but could also incorporate different styles at a relatively competitive atmosphere.

They've tried, and the unification points do not translate well. Sanda always comes on top due to the points given when there are dumps and shooting for the grapple to the mid section.
 
Again, people don't appreciate Sanda because they think its just another redundant sport that combines kickboxing and wrestling. Its not. There are ALOT of moves they do there that are either not found or rarely used in other combat sports. In fact, the wrestling element is what makes Sanda unique. Sanda style wrestling isn't the typical MMA wrestling. Its called fast wrestling and there are lots of moves used there not seen in MMA. If you watch enough Sanda fights you can tell. Sanda wrestling came from Shuaijiao which, similar to Judo, is more about clinch wrestling and also kick wrestling. The idea is to use wrestling as a counter to strikes; wrestling moves are executed at the same time an opponent is striking, whether catching a kick and execute many kinds of takedowns from there or use the momentum of their punch to get into the clinch and immediately execute a throw that off balances them or throws them. This is why clinch time is only 2 seconds, the idea is to execute a wrestling move as fast as possible without the opponent being prepared and aware. This is different from constant wrestling pressure in MMA.
Sanda and CMA generally do not compartmentalize striking and wrestling into different things and thats the beauty of it.
Jon Jones and GSP actually uses some of these moves that they use commonly in Sanda and that's why they can take down guys who have more accomplished wrestling credentials. There are lots of these moves that MMA can still look into, but China, being more focused on kickboxing market at his moment, doesn't really try to hone the grappling aspect of Sanda and try MMA instead. Sanda is one of the rare sports where fighters have the potential to transition to both kickboxing and MMA.




Also, since 2011 the rules changed a bit in Amateur matches, above waist throws where you land with the opponent and gets up right away don't score 3 points anymore, but only 2, the same way as a throw where the executor remain standing.

I finally understand what you are saying man. I used to dislike Sanda because it had point advantages over MT, so there i thought there was foul play. But they way you describe Sanda, I would rather much watch Sanda fights than WLF fights man. I would like to add Sanda in my skill set of fighting as well. Can you send me a link to a youtube channel that shows nothing but Sanda?
 
more realistic than muay thai will ever be.

Thais get taken down like a stack of jengas falling in mma fights when they attempt their "good" clinch game. haha


Let me give you an example why MMA isn't street fighting (Chris Wade vs Zhang Lipeng):

http://forum.mmatd.com/f1-f38/chris-wade-vs-zhang-lipeng-t78577.html



Notice how Zhang intentionally or not, used "dirty tactics" to get out of grappling situations and disrupt the flow of Wade's wrestling offense and pressure (as Wade noted himself). In MMA its illegal and he got a point deducted, but in real fights, nothing is preventing a person to simply grab the eye, knee or punch the groin and even bite to get out of a prolonged grappling offense. People argue that the offensive wrestler can do the same; yes they certainly can, which simply mean both fighters would simply want to get out of grappling even sooner and hence it disentangles anyways.

All you need is to defend an initial takedown assault, gain neutral position, and you can easily disentangle from wrestling pressure if you fight dirty. Of course, you still need basic TDD and wrestling for that, but you do not need to be State champ level.

MMA pressure wrestling is not realistic against a person who has decent defensive wrestling AND fights dirty.
 
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Dude, make up your mind. First you don't like it because of nationalism now you like it. If you are a fighter fighting in China, Korea or Japan, you will always face some bias against you as a foreigner, that is what sells tickets at the end of the day. What's most important is that the judging is not overly biased, which for the most part is good.
 
While prolonged MMA grappling is not realistic on the streets, it still exposes a huge weakness of many other martial arts. The ability to get off the ground is still very important to self defense and I think all martial artists would benefit from at least some BJJ training.
 
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