Zen Mind when training

[a guy]

The only real way to achieve this in my opinion is to be fundamentally sound and have good defense. You need to learn to be comfortable, which you can only do if you're confident in your defense.

 

[ChachiKiller]

I just got back from Japan where a Shingon Monk told us that meditation isn't about having an empty mind. It's opening of your mind to allow for thoughts to come and go freely.

That said, you don't need meditation to get into a so-called "zen" state. In fact, I don't think it is very helpful. I think relaxation comes naturally with time as you accumulate hours of practice and fighting.

This. Read flow states and get off needing a Buddhist monk stuff. How stupid is it that I am putting the Godfather of this study infront of people and we keep making it a spiritual discussion.

Michael Jordan existed in the state of flow when he played. The bigger the game and the more complete the experience. He NEVER studied Buddhism.

 

[ChachiKiller]

The only real way to achieve this in my opinion is to be fundamentally sound and have good defense. You need to learn to be comfortable, which you can only do if you're confident in your defense.

You are not far off. You are confusing relaxing about not getting hit? It is more broad. It is not worrying period. Worrying is rooted in external thinking. Any external thinking or emotions resulting from thinking will block the experience. It is not zen but it is close because it lights up the same area under EEG. It is not just relaxing, it is completely being in a moment where you are so natural at what you are doing (where ability meets challenge) and you have the ideal competitive state for the activity.

 

[SummerStriker]

I actually visited a couple buddhist temples in the past and think I might return to that.

Ultimately this is the reason why Samurais made buddhism their religion. Whereas Shinto was the prominent faith.

Since it allowed them to fight with a sense of detachment and no fear of death. Which would be particularly more crucial with sword fighting. Where death could be imminent with just one move.

But I like the point you made about upping the bar. It's true anyone can be zen like to a certain degree in already calming environment. Being able to be centred in true chaos where you know there can be damage done is upping the bar.

There is a lot tied up in the idea of being able to fight without a fear of death. You can't discount the fear of shame in its power to be stronger than a fear of death. Having enough courage to stand up when you are afraid is another thing. Really being detached is a whole higher level. You also have people who are really advanced, who can intentionally reduce their startle response:

http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/the-monk-and-the-gunshot/30408

On the other hand, you have people like this guy who probably has lived through such a shit life that the volume, figuratively or literally, of violence has been turned down a lot:

[YT]paSKBobq3H0[/YT]

He certainly has a suppressed flinch, but I wouldn't call that either a flow state or any kind of enlightenment. Maybe some kind of detachment.

My point is mostly that self observation is difficult and that to an outside observer, without having a lot of empathy, personal insight or knowledge of your character or history, it is really difficult to know what is going on inside someone.

I have personally been in flow states many times. I've been in flow states performing patient care as a medic. I've been in flow states playing video games. I've been in flow states sparring. I wouldn't at all say that those flow states carried over into my personal life, helped me outside of the task or made me a better person.

People love Christianity, often because they can ask God for things and they feel like they get them, sort of like loving a cow for its milk. People love Buddha for the same reason, they think that meditation provides practical benefits when they perform certain activities. I get meditation and I get flow states. I'm not enlightened, obviously. Because of your interest in Buddhism, I wasn't really trying to help you with obtaining better flow while fighting, but to point out that flow isn't necessarily enlightenment and that someone who lives this sort of thing may be able to help you both with flow, and with being a better person, which is much more important that how good you feel about yourself after you get done working out. A huge part of that is to not focus on obtaining the flow state, but on how pursuing these skills for yourself, you are better able to help other people.

One of the initial criticisms of Buddhism on Indian religion was that the states of enlightenment were not sustainable and were only able to be experienced in specific conditions or with certain ascetic practice. My intuition is that flow states performing an activity would be in this category of faux enlightenment.

 

[Azam]

This. Read flow states and get off needing a Buddhist monk stuff. How stupid is it that I am putting the Godfather of this study infront of people and we keep making it a spiritual discussion.

Michael Jordan existed in the state of flow when he played. The bigger the game and the more complete the experience. He NEVER studied Buddhism.

I don't think anyone is advocating that you can only get a relaxed state of mind through Buddhism or one of it's philosophies. I've met calm christians, muslims, atheists & agnostics.

There are many paths to achieve a relaxed or calm state of mind but it's not as easy as it's made out to be. It took me nearly a decade to calm down from the explosive temper & emotional person I was 10 years ago. I did it without using any philosophy, just thought to myself, I don't like the emotional & explosive temper I had or the feeling that it gave me & simply changed.

I think the real trick is becoming calm/relaxed in your everyday life because it extends to your sparring or fighting, at least this is what I have personally experienced, as opposed to just getting it in through sparring experience which isn't nearly as robust because as soon as you hit that threshold of duress, everyone reverts to the way 'they really are' - their sense of self.



But I think there are also other paths except for being calm/relaxed. Fear for example can be a great motivator and also self-destructive. Being calm/relaxed can also be very self-destructive because sometimes it's emotions that drive us further than what we are normally able to achieve - you shut yourself off from this if you remain entirely calm. That's why I don't really buy into the mushin branch of philosophy - you remain stoic and you shut yourself off from the positives of emotions, like digging deep down and using your determination or willpower to persevere & overcome.

We are human beings at the end of the day - I feel we should embrace our emotions but use them as fuel in positive ways, the way I think you can do that is remaining relatively relaxed/calm & disciplined (it shouldn't be a conscious effort but how you as a person really are).

Like for example using disciplined & relative calmness enough to use willpower/determination to overcome and push further than the norm ---- not allowing them to rule the self if that makes sense (so that you don't burn yourself out) i.e. to have control over yourself - to use discipline/calmness to keep everything in check, which in essence is to have control over the self.

Mushin advocates having no emotion or state - I think that you should retain all emotions just be in control of them and not them in control of you.

 

[ChachiKiller]

I don't think anyone is advocating that you can only get a relaxed state of mind through Buddhism or one of it's philosophies. I've met calm christians, muslims, atheists & agnostics.

There are many paths to achieve a relaxed or calm state of mind but it's not as easy as it's made out to be. It took me nearly a decade to calm down from the explosive temper & emotional person I was 10 years ago. I did it without using any philosophy, just thought to myself, I don't like the emotional & explosive temper I had or the feeling that it gave me & simply changed.

I think the real trick is becoming calm/relaxed in your everyday life because it extends to your sparring or fighting, at least this is what I have personally experienced, as opposed to just getting it in through sparring experience which isn't nearly as robust because as soon as you hit that threshold of duress, everyone reverts to the way 'they really are' - their sense of self.



But I think there are also other paths except for being calm/relaxed. Fear for example can be a great motivator and also self-destructive. Being calm/relaxed can also be very self-destructive because sometimes it's emotions that drive us further than what we are normally able to achieve - you shut yourself off from this if you remain entirely calm. That's why I don't really buy into the mushin branch of philosophy - you remain stoic and you shut yourself off from the positives of emotions, like digging deep down and using your determination or willpower to persevere & overcome.

We are human beings at the end of the day - I feel we should embrace our emotions but use them as fuel in positive ways, the way I think you can do that is remaining relatively relaxed/calm & disciplined (it shouldn't be a conscious effort but how you as a person really are).

Like for example using disciplined & relative calmness enough to use willpower/determination to overcome and push further than the norm ---- not allowing them to rule the self if that makes sense (so that you don't burn yourself out) i.e. to have control over yourself - to use discipline/calmness to keep everything in check, which in essence is to have control over the self.

Mushin advocates having no emotion or state - I think that you should retain all emotions just be in control of them and not them in control of you.

There was some stuff about Buddhism otherwise I would not have posted multiple times. If someone said "I want to study martial arts but I want one that combines all of them and lets me fight with minimal rules" and then proceeded to discuss and reinvent MMA, you would tell them multiple times that this stuff is out there.

We beat up on all the mysticism of the traditional stuff, and now we are clinging to it when there is a less arduous approach that is activity specific. I personally like the study and practice. I keep seeing things posted on mushin. Mushin was a practice that required immense deep personal changes the second you start to eliminate your sense of self. You CAN NOT have mushin without significant change in your life. You have to abandon any and all sense of ego and that means materialism, aspirations..... In modern life, good luck with that. It is doable but you will have to look it in the face and decide which direction you will go in. Commit or back off. You can improve your state of stillness but to foster it will force change. It is a spiritual pursuit for the sake of spiritualism. If you don't want to get that deep, then focus on flow.

If you want to improve a SPORT, you do not need to do mushin (although samadhi is a closer word that mushin which is commonly misused and misunderstood as now). In the end, mushin is an emptying of self and flow is about "the mental state of operation in which a person performing an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity. In essence, flow is characterized by complete absorption in what one does."

"Nakamura and Cs

 

[ChachiKiller]

I don't think anyone is advocating that you can only get a relaxed state of mind through Buddhism or one of it's philosophies. I've met calm christians, muslims, atheists & agnostics.

There are many paths to achieve a relaxed or calm state of mind but it's not as easy as it's made out to be. It took me nearly a decade to calm down from the explosive temper & emotional person I was 10 years ago. I did it without using any philosophy, just thought to myself, I don't like the emotional & explosive temper I had or the feeling that it gave me & simply changed.

I think the real trick is becoming calm/relaxed in your everyday life because it extends to your sparring or fighting, at least this is what I have personally experienced, as opposed to just getting it in through sparring experience which isn't nearly as robust because as soon as you hit that threshold of duress, everyone reverts to the way 'they really are' - their sense of self.



But I think there are also other paths except for being calm/relaxed. Fear for example can be a great motivator and also self-destructive. Being calm/relaxed can also be very self-destructive because sometimes it's emotions that drive us further than what we are normally able to achieve - you shut yourself off from this if you remain entirely calm. That's why I don't really buy into the mushin branch of philosophy - you remain stoic and you shut yourself off from the positives of emotions, like digging deep down and using your determination or willpower to persevere & overcome.

We are human beings at the end of the day - I feel we should embrace our emotions but use them as fuel in positive ways, the way I think you can do that is remaining relatively relaxed/calm & disciplined (it shouldn't be a conscious effort but how you as a person really are).

Like for example using disciplined & relative calmness enough to use willpower/determination to overcome and push further than the norm ---- not allowing them to rule the self if that makes sense (so that you don't burn yourself out) i.e. to have control over yourself - to use discipline/calmness to keep everything in check, which in essence is to have control over the self.

Mushin advocates having no emotion or state - I think that you should retain all emotions just be in control of them and not them in control of you.

Like for example using disciplined & relative calmness enough to use willpower/determination to overcome and push further than the norm ---- not allowing them to rule the self if that makes sense (so that you don't burn yourself out) i.e. to have control over yourself - to use discipline/calmness to keep everything in check, which in essence is to have control over the self.

Mushin advocates having no emotion or state - I think that you should retain all emotions just be in control of them and not them in control of you.

[/QUOTE]


This required its own response. The second that you require "will power and determination" you are absolutely not anywhere near a state of no mind. The simple task of looking for "more strength or willpower" takes you out of that state. If you are talking about something like calm under fire, you are looking for a different word. Mushin aint it. You don't control your emotions to harness them. YOu simply don't have them.