You should have to work at walmart, without a college degree.

[ultramanhyata]

There are still tons of high paying manufacturing jobs, but these require technical degrees and jobs.

But we're talking about the absence of well-paying, minimally-skilled manufacturing jobs.

Of course there will always be some type of "manufacturing" industry. But, like other increasingly high-tech industries, it will require a level of informational mastery not within reach for the majority of the workforce.

 

[Orgasmo]

I've hard many times that the local constructing unions here in Missouri are run by the mafia. My buddy who was in the laborers union said it's definitely true. Also I met a union boss one time & he was a big fat mafia looking guy sitting there puffing on a cigar like he was Al Capone

Don't know about the States, but Italian mob has a huge presence in the construction industry in Montreal. As far as Vancouver dock goes, the jobs are very lucrative. It pays anywhere from $35 (regular) to $70 (weekend graveyard shift) an hour. That's just regular pay, not overtime rate. The Hells Angels members pass these jobs down like heirloom items, and outsiders rarely get it.

There are news report that construction workers' union in Montreal is controlled by the Italian mob. I

Did you read the OP?

Yes I read. It sounds a bit too Communist-ish and I think it'd be hamstrung by bureaucracy. Unions are going to lose much of their power very soon when automation kicks in.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I work in Retail. I would recommend it if your dream job is something like Assassin, Drug Dealer, Politician, Lawyer, Terrorist or Arms Dealer. Trust me: nothing kills every last vestige of humanity, empathy and compassion faster than a tour of duty in a busy supermarket. Within six months you would be willing to slit a baby's throat in front of it's mother if it guaranteed you a better job.

Man I have had some shit jobs, but never retail.

I would rather shovel pig shit then work retail.

 

[VivaRevolution]

It always puzzles me when people point to a single 20-year period in world history, restricted to a single nation in extraordinary circumstance, as the baseline standard for societal performance.

1940's USA was under-utilized industrially at the outbreak of war. Government defense spending provided a huge economic infrastructure starting boost that allowed factories to be built, while every other industrial center (read: competitor) on earth was bombed into dust. Within it's wake, the US experienced a fluke ~17 years that have NEVER existed anywhere else, ever. Not only was no one available to compete on prices, but those would-be-rivals actually became buyers while rebuilding their own nations. By the later 1960's this was already "in decline" (IOW, returning to normal levels), and by the 1970's plenty of rivals had re-emerged.

Whenever I see people compare performance to this stretch, it reminds of some average guy happened to be walking past the limo right when the A-List starlet got out without underwear on ... and now uses that as his minimum acceptable woman on a dating app. It's insane.

No law known to humanity is going to make a typical high school graduate earn enough to purchase a decent brand-new home in the suburbs, buy his car outright (no loan), support a non-working wife and three children, plus go on vacations.
THIS is what that era saw commonplace. In any other era, this is pure fantasy.


P.S. I don't know which Union members people in this thread are talking to, but virtually everyone I know was forced out/into retirement as soon as they were eligible to make room for others. Plus, the new guys are getting paid less than new guys used to.

Also, @Drenalin's experience about St. Louis matches my own. I had a buddy who's dad had the job of helping other Union members "vote right".

It puzzles you when people point to the greatest economic growth for a single nation in world history?


As far as the WWII shit, that is a lie. Yes massive production and wealth were enabled post WWII, after the greatest economic collapse ever seen.

To pretend that the labor revolution, which continued from the 30's played no role in the wealth being distributed to those who survived protecting the job creators with their blood and lives, is absurd.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Is the issue lack of middle class jobs or lack of jobs offering middle class pay?

Your getting it. We took shit jobs with our labor revolution, and legally forced them to become middle class jobs.

 

[Don Quixote]

Nearly every high paying manufacturing job that I"ve seen advertised required at least 5-10 years of experience. No employer seems to want a fresh kid right out of tech school.

If a job is high paying, I don't think you're going to have a problem finding skilled and experienced workers. No one seems to want to give someone without experience a chance.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Bernie Weekend-in-Moscow Sanders supporter wants to return to the days of McCarthy-ism.

You can't make this up folks.

Why not, you already jerk off to a poster of McCarthy while screaming Wolverines!!

 

[VivaRevolution]

Nearly every high paying manufacturing job that I"ve seen advertised required at least 5-10 years of experience. No employer seems to want a fresh kid right out of tech school.

If a job is high paying, I don't think you're going to have a problem finding skilled and experienced workers. No one seems to want to give someone without experience a chance.

And this was the major difference before. Their weren't experienced people looking for work. Those people had job security, so the employers had to hire and train unskilled workers.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Wont the corporations just buy off your one national Union?

Eventually, which is why Jefferson said, let their never be 20 years without a revolution such as this.

Corruption is as immutable as entropy is. Also like entropy, things are organized in the beginning and actually function.

 

[sickc0d3r]

A National Union would only have a benefit in that it could increase wage prices by imposing control over labor supply. It would increase wages and distort their value in relation to supply and demand. This would lower economic productivity. To make that work you would need to wall of the country economically or companies would outsource or people would buy cheaper foreign products. Getting rid of productivity enhancing trade would also hurt the economy. Poorer but more equal / share a smaller pie.

That’s the problem with all unions, minimum wage, all social instruments tied to employment. They fuck up the economy.

Just in case you think I am advocating boot strapism, I’m not. Let the market work and create wealth. Let the government through taxation and programs redistribute that wealth. No need to arbitrarily set prices, pick winners and losers, etc. Force the winners to help everyone else out and if they don’t like it they can move.

This is a good post, but I am curious why you think labor unions aren't free market compatible? Every benefit is negotiated between labor and employer, even if by proxy.

My take is that national unions are an ok idea, by industry, with government as a mediator. I think Germany does this, they just aren't so adversarial over there.

 

[SomebodyElse]

It puzzles you when people point to the greatest economic growth for a single nation in world history?

When they point to it as citation for expectation of performance? Yes, absolutely.

It's like complaining about your Center failing to score 100 points in a game.

As far as the WWII shit, that is a lie. Yes massive production and wealth were enabled post WWII, after the greatest economic collapse ever seen.

To pretend that the labor revolution, which continued from the 30's played no role in the wealth being distributed to those who survived protecting the job creators with their blood and lives, is absurd.

What is a lie regarding WW2?

This?

Sorry Viva, you are in WAAYYYY over your head here.

 

[helltoupee]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

 

[TSO]

When I was 16, in 1996

Discuss......

We are the same age

In 1996 I was graduating highschool(got in a year early and took 2 extra classes a semester plus summer school). Still didn't do shit towards a higher education for years and was a factory worker for the first five years out of high school. It paid well enough to buy a house in SD before I was 20.

People don't need to go to college to earn a lot of money. You just have to work in industries most people wont/can't because of danger or skill level.

 

[bobgeese]

Its been done, it is called 1940-1970's america, when everyone was an economic progressive, even republicans.

Honest question for you here. And I believe Trump voters, and economic progressives (not the other half of Bernie folks, or SJWimps) have a lot in common.



Do you really think that is possible in today's world where a company can just pick up, move to a lower taxed nation, and ship products back into the country?

I believe I've seen you mention tariffs etc before, is that how you plan on getting around this?

 

[Gandhi]

This is a good post, but I am curious why you think labor unions aren't free market compatible? Every benefit is negotiated between labor and employer, even if by proxy.

My take is that national unions are an ok idea, by industry, with government as a mediator. I think Germany does this, they just aren't so adversarial over there.

Thanks

It depends if it's a legally enforced closed shop and if the employer can fire you for memebership. If it's an open shop it's more market, if they can be fired, even more market.

To be clear I am not saying unions are incompatible, a market system that creates wealth can be combined with a multitude of tools that redistribute it better than the market can. Unions historically have been one of those tools. I just don't believe that increasing monopolistic power of labor to be the best way of doing this.

 

[POWER2]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

The days of American manufacturing is gone. As long as you're willing to pretend that Apple is an American company, buys Fords made in Mexico and eat food grown in the Caribbean, you get what you deserve. No college degree, shitty lifestyle. The purpose of a global economy is make other people labor while highly educated people delegate for a living.

If you don't want it that way, tell your elected officials to dismantle the global economy. (which is of course impossible and will met with laughter)

None of this really matters. As long as there are an average of 100 wars going on at any time and people are buying SUVs, the planet is doomed. In 300 years the rich will live on space stations where they will slowly go crazy and kill each other. Everyone else will be a footnote in history books....because they will be gone from pollution.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Times have changed. Technology has replaced those jobs from the war eras. You can’t be a piece of shit and live comfortably in America anymore. Thank inflation too. And the rise in prices without a rise in wages.

""""technology""""

 

[silicavaginitis]

How much is considered a high paying job?

 

[deadshot138]

""""technology""""

Oh yeah and corporate greed plays a role too

 

[Lord_Impaler]

Nearly every high paying manufacturing job that I"ve seen advertised required at least 5-10 years of experience. No employer seems to want a fresh kid right out of tech school.

If a job is high paying, I don't think you're going to have a problem finding skilled and experienced workers. No one seems to want to give someone without experience a chance.

I've hired literally hundreds of tradesman/laborers for various contractors and companies, no one gives a fuck about your trade school diploma, it's 100% about experience. Not to mention, some kids come out of trade school, depending on the institution, they have 50 grand to pay back, and literally no one cares about it. It's about experience and licenses, that's it.