YAY Weapons forum: so, who carries knives?

[PT447]

lol When I brought up the idea in-detail for this forum Administration asked me where I wanted it. I said "Stand-up technique, since I can't think of any grappling weapons that are specifically used on the ground." One of the Administrators replies "How about a rake?"

What's hilarious is I couldn't think of anything to debunk the credibility of a rake being a grappling weapon to be used on the ground. In the most literal senses.

Anyhow, I respect your opinion. I just think that over-use and irresponsibility of guns has discredited their inherent need for skill. It seems a lot of morons can indeed find them easily used to over-compensate for lack of skill, making it a bit of a catch-22.

Maybe some comedian was right in saying they should recall all the guns available to the general public and instead everyone gets handed out muskets. THEN it'd be a game of skill.

oh i think that competetive shooting and using rifle's is essentially a skillfull persuit... but honestly, the most perceived gun is the handgun... and that rerquires zero skill to take anyone out. i equate handguns with knives... since they are the only things you can equate of the two forms of weapons... essentially, handguns being closest to close-combat weapons, like knives and swords. but i also standbye my "ware" position as it takes the fight away from the warrior and into the hands of the generals! but hey, all's fair in love and war, eh?

like that little pun didn't'cha?

 

[Sinister]

Yeah it was tight-work.

So do you have formal education of knivery? Or is it just a hobby-style passion.

What's your favorite style of knife-fighting? For me Kali seems to have the skinny on some of the best tactics. I once met a Mexican dude in California who had one arm all drawn-up with his hand gnarled like if he was clawing. Asked him what happened and he said he got into a knife-fight with a Filipino dude who knew Kali, and he got cut along the inside of his upper-most arm right near the armpit. Said it severed a bunch of nerves and he lost use of the arm completely.

Funny part:

He still knife fights.

 

[KOU In3]

it takes the fight away from the warri[/B]or and into the hands of the generals! but hey, all's fair in love and war, eh?

I think this is the crux of the difference though. Streetfights can't be romanticized into battles between honorable warriors but instead tend to be dirty scuffles initiated by someone who perceives themself to have an unfair advatage.

The biggest reason NOT to fight IMO, is that someone will only fight you because they think they are going to win. So when you look at them and think that your training tips the scales in your favor, they have either training, buddies to back them up, or are armed.

 

[PT447]

Yeah it was tight-work.

So do you have formal education of knivery? Or is it just a hobby-style passion.

What's your favorite style of knife-fighting? For me Kali seems to have the skinny on some of the best tactics. I once met a Mexican dude in California who had one arm all drawn-up with his hand gnarled like if he was clawing. Asked him what happened and he said he got into a knife-fight with a Filipino dude who knew Kali, and he got cut along the inside of his upper-most arm right near the armpit. Said it severed a bunch of nerves and he lost use of the arm completely.

Funny part:

He still knife fights.

i don't have any formal training in knife fighting. like i said, never had to be forced into a confrontation where i needed to use my knife. but i've wathed videos, taken manual's and such from libraries. i'm more into the collecting. when/if i come into a lot of money, i'd love to start purchasing some real antiques and rare knives.

i'll tell you though, some of those knife-fighting styles are really intense, crazy fast-paced attacks and stuff. i've thought about putting more effort into learning more about using knives properly, but i guess its just low on my priority list!

 

[PT447]

I think this is the crux of the difference though. Streetfights can't be romanticized into battles between honorable warriors but instead tend to be dirty scuffles initiated by someone who perceives themself to have an unfair advatage.

The biggest reason NOT to fight IMO, is that someone will only fight you because they think they are going to win. So when you look at them and think that your training tips the scales in your favor, they have either training, buddies to back them up, or are armed.

totally agree! most fights are quick and brutal. just like most bare-handed fights go to the ground at turn into a pounding. most knife fights are slashing and swiping...

as far as nobody fighting unless they feel they have the advantage, i adressed that in an earlier post. i've had knives drawn on me a few times in philly and back in school... once i drew my own from underneath my hoody, they backed off and looked at me like i was some sort of "badass"... its funny, if they drew a gun, i'd just have thrown them my wallet, but if a guy pulls a knife, chances are its all he has. and most criminals are petty anyway, so they want to avoid confrontation, only want to show they "could" hurt you!

 

[TapOutGrapler]

I got an Argentinan Steak knife that I carry around, just incase someone doesn't have a steak knife to offer me at their house

 

[Tristram Shandy]

oh i think that competetive shooting and using rifle's is essentially a skillfull persuit... but honestly, the most perceived gun is the handgun... and that rerquires zero skill to take anyone out.

I would strongly challenge the assertion that the hand gun requires "zero skill." As someone who is certified in the use of three different firearms weapon systems (rifle, shotgun, and handgun) I would suggest that it is actually the most difficult. Any firearms instructor (which I am not) could tell you that because less of your body is in contact with the weapon it is harder to control. This is why automatic rifles can be fired accurately (use of a shoulder stock) as opposed to a pistol which, when rendered automatic, usually needs to have a foregrip added to it to achieve any kind of accuracy. This is akin to gun enthusiasts I know telling me that they don't need to learn how to punch since EVERYBODY knows how to throw a punch.

As far as the knife question goes I never leave the house without my Kershaw Ken Onion Boa 3 3/8" folder. At work I also carry a SOG Seal Pup and a Gerber Boot Knife. I can think of several times at which these weapons could be used effectively in the guard (femoral arteries anyone?) but I will defer to senior members for the moment.

 

[PT447]

oh i think that competetive shooting and using rifle's is essentially a skillfull persuit... but honestly, the most perceived gun is the handgun... and that rerquires zero skill to take anyone out.

I would strongly challenge the assertion that the hand gun requires "zero skill." As someone who is certified in the use of three different firearms weapon systems (rifle, shotgun, and handgun) I would suggest that it is actually the most difficult. Any firearms instructor (which I am not) could tell you that because less of your body is in contact with the weapon it is harder to control. This is why automatic rifles can be fired accurately (use of a shoulder stock) as opposed to a pistol which, when rendered automatic, usually needs to have a foregrip added to it to achieve any kind of accuracy. This is akin to gun enthusiasts I know telling me that they don't need to learn how to punch since EVERYBODY knows how to throw a punch.

As far as the knife question goes I never leave the house without my Kershaw Ken Onion Boa 3 3/8" folder. At work I also carry a SOG Seal Pup and a Gerber Boot Knife. I can think of several times at which these weapons could be used effectively in the guard (femoral arteries anyone?) but I will defer to senior members for the moment.

i totally respect your opinion... but lets face it... more gun deaths (violent and accident) are done by handguns. shootings on streets, with gangs, those guys don't go to gun school. little kids picking up guns and shooting them... i'm not knocking guns at all in the way you might think, i'm just saying that any moron can pick up a handgun, point and shoot. how could that be not true? again, i'm not talking knowledge of the complexities of the weapon, i.e. cleaning, maintenance and repair. i'm saying, point and shoot.

and as for the knife/guard example... yeah, your 100% right, but in the end, knife fights are mostly stand-up swipe and poke ordeals...not on the ground, precision strikes!!! i'm talking the average encounter, since the vast majority of people don't have any training in anything they use!

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

It takes skill to use knives and guns but its just so much more fun to stab someone than shoot them.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

.

I once met a Mexican dude in California who had one arm all drawn-up with his hand gnarled like if he was clawing. Asked him what happened and he said he got into a knife-fight with a Filipino dude who knew Kali, and he got cut along the inside of his upper-most arm right near the armpit. Said it severed a bunch of nerves and he lost use of the arm completely.

Pwned.

 

[CowboyPete]

oh i think that competetive shooting and using rifle's is essentially a skillfull persuit... but honestly, the most perceived gun is the handgun... and that rerquires zero skill to take anyone out. i equate handguns with knives... since they are the only things you can equate of the two forms of weapons... essentially, handguns being closest to close-combat weapons, like knives and swords. but i also standbye my "ware" position as it takes the fight away from the warrior and into the hands of the generals! but hey, all's fair in love and war, eh?

like that little pun didn't'cha?

To further drive home the idea that it does take skill to kill someone, here's a true little story of a shootout that took place on my campus a couple years ago (I go to SUNY New Paltz, you can look this up if you want). After an on campus party, some students were walking to their homes through one of the parking lots and they were fired upon by a person carrying a handgun. This was two people. The attacker fired six shots and then left the scene. 5 of them missed and the only one that hit caught one of the guys (barely) in the thigh.

 

[PT447]

thats what i'm talking about! anyone who thinks it takes any skill to shoot a handgun is a little to delerious about how special guns are! you point & pull, thats it! again, i'm only talking about handguns here!

 

[stewy37]

thats what i'm talking about! anyone who thinks it takes any skill to shoot a handgun is a little to delerious about how special guns are! you point & pull, thats it! again, i'm only talking about handguns here!

This is ridiculous. I'm a Marine Corps marksmanship coach. I've seen Marines with a solid grasp of the fundamentals of marksmanship miss a man-sized target completely from 7 yards. That's with time to aim and little to no adrenaline in their system. It's not until they've had sufficient trigger time that they actually become proficient. With a pistol, there are so many things that can throw off a shot; flinching, anticipating, jerking the trigger and so on. A rifle is more forgiving, because it's longer. A small movement only throws the round off a little. A difference of 1-2 degrees off with a pistol can be the difference between a bullseye and completely missing the target. Now add adrenaline in to the mix. Motor skills decrease. Blood starts pumping, and if you need a pistol the fucker you want to shoot is damn close, so you don't have much time at all to make an accurate shot. It's much easier to learn to shoot a rifle accurately.
The reason most gunshot deaths are from handguns is convenience. It's pretty hard to hide a rifle in your pants. A pistol is easy to tuck into a waistband and carry with you. Noone is going to let you into a party with an AR-15 in your hands.
You also seem to have some romantic notions about honor and glory. If you're in a gun fight it's kill or be killed. Same for a knife fight. If someone is trying to kill me with a knife, I'd be wishing for a gun real quick. First choice would be to get away. There's no honor in a street fight, only survival. That's why I avoid them at all costs. As far as warfare, honor and the warrior spirit still abound. However, when it gets down to it, it's about killing the enemy as fast as possible with the least threat to myself or my men. I have no problem with dropping a 1000 lb bomb on some asshole that just took a potshot at me. If you shoot once at me, myself and my men are throwing 1000 rounds at you. If you're designated hostile and your back is turned, I'll gladly put two in your back and not lose a wink of sleep over it. If you're dumb enough to attack me with a knife, I'll put two in your chest, one in your head without blinking. The warrior spirit isn't about even warfare. The warrior spirit keeps me from killing innocents. It makes me willing to sacrifice for my men. It makes me willing to sacrifice so that people like you can say guns are for pussies. It makes me "no better friend, no worse enemy."
Maybe you should take some time to better educate yourself. Have you ever even fired a weapon?

 

[stewy37]

lol Spray and pray. Shit now we're gonna have another jargon-term around here like Lay n' pray, and clinch n' pray, already the weapons forum has one.

Spray and Pray has actually been around for a long time. It's basically what the Russian marksmanship philosphy was, and it's definitely the philosophy for the majority of the insurgents overseas. Basically it means holding the trigger down and hoping and praying you hit something. Example:

Afghan National Army major gets arrested by Afghan National Police. ANA guys gets pissed and go in to town to break him out. They get in a firefight with ANP. Over 5000 rounds are fired. Two ANP with minor extremety wounds are the only result.

 

[PT447]

This is ridiculous. I'm a Marine Corps marksmanship coach. I've seen Marines with a solid grasp of the fundamentals of marksmanship miss a man-sized target completely from 7 yards. That's with time to aim and little to no adrenaline in their system. It's not until they've had sufficient trigger time that they actually become proficient. With a pistol, there are so many things that can throw off a shot; flinching, anticipating, jerking the trigger and so on. A rifle is more forgiving, because it's longer. A small movement only throws the round off a little. A difference of 1-2 degrees off with a pistol can be the difference between a bullseye and completely missing the target. Now add adrenaline in to the mix. Motor skills decrease. Blood starts pumping, and if you need a pistol the fucker you want to shoot is damn close, so you don't have much time at all to make an accurate shot. It's much easier to learn to shoot a rifle accurately.
The reason most gunshot deaths are from handguns is convenience. It's pretty hard to hide a rifle in your pants. A pistol is easy to tuck into a waistband and carry with you. Noone is going to let you into a party with an AR-15 in your hands.
You also seem to have some romantic notions about honor and glory. If you're in a gun fight it's kill or be killed. Same for a knife fight. If someone is trying to kill me with a knife, I'd be wishing for a gun real quick. First choice would be to get away. There's no honor in a street fight, only survival. That's why I avoid them at all costs. As far as warfare, honor and the warrior spirit still abound. However, when it gets down to it, it's about killing the enemy as fast as possible with the least threat to myself or my men. I have no problem with dropping a 1000 lb bomb on some asshole that just took a potshot at me. If you shoot once at me, myself and my men are throwing 1000 rounds at you. If you're designated hostile and your back is turned, I'll gladly put two in your back and not lose a wink of sleep over it. If you're dumb enough to attack me with a knife, I'll put two in your chest, one in your head without blinking. The warrior spirit isn't about even warfare. The warrior spirit keeps me from killing innocents. It makes me willing to sacrifice for my men. It makes me willing to sacrifice so that people like you can say guns are for pussies. It makes me "no better friend, no worse enemy."
Maybe you should take some time to better educate yourself. Have you ever even fired a weapon?

your thinking in the box my friend. most gun related deaths are by handguns, on the streets, in homes, shit like that... up close and personal with a handgun! no 100 yard shit, nothing. i pull a gun, shove it in your direction and pull the trigger. no skill!

oh, i also don't think i said "guns are for pussies" but if anything, your more than proving my ever-present notion that military people tend to be a little to religious about their weapons and their place in the world! dude, marksmanship is one thing, but you will never show any proof that picking up a pistol and shooting it at someone reqires more than 0% skill and effort!

how come people can't read threads? i said that other than "marksmenship" and other skilled endevours, the use of a handgun at its most basic (and interestingly, most used) level, is a totally unskilled act!

 

[CowboyPete]

your thinking in the box my friend. most gun related deaths are by handguns, on the streets, in homes, shit like that... up close and personal with a handgun! no 100 yard shit, nothing. i pull a gun, shove it in your direction and pull the trigger. no skill!

oh, i also don't think i said "guns are for pussies" but if anything, your more than proving my ever-present notion that military people tend to be a little to religious about their weapons and their place in the world! dude, marksmanship is one thing, but you will never show any proof that picking up a pistol and shooting it at someone reqires more than 0% skill and effort!

how come people can't read threads? i said that other than "marksmenship" and other skilled endevours, the use of a handgun at its most basic (and interestingly, most used) level, is a totally unskilled act!

If you're saying that shoving a pistol into someone's ribs and pulling the trigger until the clip empties takes no skill then yes, that's true.

If you're saying that firing on someone from any distance greater than 5 feet from the end of your arm takes no skill then no, that's false. Go to a shooting range. Try to hit a target at 10 yards and see how successful you are with a single shot fired as quickly as possible. Then watch someone who's been firing handguns for years fire on the same target with the same shot. If it takes no skill, you should have the same degree of success. I guarantee you will not.

 

[Sinister]

oh, i also don't think i said "guns are for pussies" but if anything, your more than proving my ever-present notion that military people tend to be a little to religious about their weapons and their place in the world! dude, marksmanship is one thing, but you will never show any proof that picking up a pistol and shooting it at someone reqires more than 0% skill and effort!

It's not that we're trying to pick on you bro, it's that you are yourself thinking "inside the box" the box of specific statistics that are largerly based on people with no knowledge and formal education of gun-use whatsoever, when you have a statistic based on and to reflect idiocy, idiocy is what you will see. But most of the gun-toting law-biding World do not apply to this, so I expected some bit of backlash from your statements.

Keep in-mind though, it's honorable that Military/Police should be somewhat religious about their Weapons. The main culture to start this was the Japanese, and the emphasis and stigma of the Katana. I know people to this day who will break their swords if someone handles the blade without their consent. And I personally find it EXTREMELY offensive if anyone attempts to handle any weapon of mine unless it's particularly warranted. Even when carrying a pistol, I trust Police (to an extent), but if they ask me if I"m packing and I say yes, and they ask me to see it I'll show them my permit and let them view the weapon. If they ask to handle it, unless I get an entirely good vibe from the Officer the response is going to be "I'm sorry Officer, I cannot permit that...unless of course you give me yours."

And I'll argue that in Court if needs be.

how come people can't read threads? i said that other than "marksmenship" and other skilled endevours, the use of a handgun at its most basic (and interestingly, most used) level, is a totally unskilled act!

This is both true and untrue though. Even the most ignorant of gangbangers...question them on fire-arms and they'll be able to spit a surprising amount of knowledge on the subject including how and when NOT to fire. They learn through trial and error though, which is a tough tough way to learn.

Accidental shootings is not so much about lack of skill as it is about overabundance and ignorance to other aspects of gun-possession. Aside from regular cleaning and maintenance, the majority of Law-biding gun-owners hardly ever even see their weapon outside of a shooting-range. My ex-step-dad is a Cop (and was an SP in the Air Force), and out of the 10+ years we lived with him I think I saw both of his guns a total of 4 times unless he was in-Uniform.

 

[PT447]

If you're saying that shoving a pistol into someone's ribs and pulling the trigger until the clip empties takes no skill then yes, that's true.

If you're saying that firing on someone from any distance greater than 5 feet from the end of your arm takes no skill then no, that's false. Go to a shooting range. Try to hit a target at 10 yards and see how successful you are with a single shot fired as quickly as possible. Then watch someone who's been firing handguns for years fire on the same target with the same shot. If it takes no skill, you should have the same degree of success. I guarantee you will not.

i'm talking about how the average gun violence is done with handguns, either at close range, or spraying techniques which often cause collateral damage and injury. like i've said a few times before in this thread, i'm not talking about skillfull use of the weapon, i'm simply saying that it takes more skill to properly use a knife than it does to simply pick up a gun and shoot someone! that's all. i wasn't knocking skilled firearm use and technique. that's a whole different pile of casings that i wouldn't think of treading on. only talking basic close-combat and interpersonal violence!

 

[PT447]

It's not that we're trying to pick on you bro, it's that you are yourself thinking "inside the box" the box of specific statistics that are largerly based on people with no knowledge and formal education of gun-use whatsoever, when you have a statistic based on and to reflect idiocy, idiocy is what you will see. But most of the gun-toting law-biding World do not apply to this, so I expected some bit of backlash from your statements.

Keep in-mind though, it's honorable that Military/Police should be somewhat religious about their Weapons. The main culture to start this was the Japanese, and the emphasis and stigma of the Katana. I know people to this day who will break their swords if someone handles the blade without their consent. And I personally find it EXTREMELY offensive if anyone attempts to handle any weapon of mine unless it's particularly warranted. Even when carrying a pistol, I trust Police (to an extent), but if they ask me if I"m packing and I say yes, and they ask me to see it I'll show them my permit and let them view the weapon. If they ask to handle it, unless I get an entirely good vibe from the Officer the response is going to be "I'm sorry Officer, I cannot permit that...unless of course you give me yours."

And I'll argue that in Court if needs be.



This is both true and untrue though. Even the most ignorant of gangbangers...question them on fire-arms and they'll be able to spit a surprising amount of knowledge on the subject including how and when NOT to fire. They learn through trial and error though, which is a tough tough way to learn.

Accidental shootings is not so much about lack of skill as it is about overabundance and ignorance to other aspects of gun-possession. Aside from regular cleaning and maintenance, the majority of Law-biding gun-owners hardly ever even see their weapon outside of a shooting-range. My ex-step-dad is a Cop (and was an SP in the Air Force), and out of the 10+ years we lived with him I think I saw both of his guns a total of 4 times unless he was in-Uniform.

i hear ya, don't worry about that. i guess what i'm trying to say is perhaps that there are just too many illegal guns!! ha, there's an understatement right? anyway, i'll concede my points to you, because you've much more than shown your side of it.

also, your comment on my "religious" quote, was pretty astute. you're correct to equate respect for weapons to the ancient samurai codes and their respect for their swords. good call on that one! it's just that i've known some people where the "full metal jacket syndrome" was kinda evident. you know, scarey gun loving type of stuff.

not overgeneralizing that all military individuals are like that (or even that many at all), but hey, there are crazies in all walks of life i guess, right?

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

not overgeneralizing that all military individuals are like that (or even that many at all), but hey, there are crazies in all walks of life i guess, right?

Most crazies, from what I've seen, like knives (I've never seen a "crazy" that has something against them)

I still like knives

thats what i'm talking about! anyone who thinks it takes any skill to shoot a handgun is a little to delerious about how special guns are! you point & pull, thats it! again, i'm only talking about handguns here!

Well, co'mon now. You mentioned that most gun violence is from handguns. Why? Because they are the concealable/portable version of a gun. Whereas most edged violence comes from which type of blade? Axe? Sword? Or the more concealable/portable version of a blade ? Hmmmmm..

& while we're on the topic of skill--
How much skill does it take to stab someone? (hint: kids are better at slashing+stabbing than shooting)

I think the detesting of handguns thing is a media-driven phobia
but it's also understandable from those with limited contact of such