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Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Gregoire1, Feb 8, 2018.
wrestling will win
this was proven like 20 years ago
My 2 cents:
Very good wrestlers make more money in MMA.
Very good boxers make more money in boxing.
This MIGHT be the reason we see more successful wrestlers in the octagon.
McGregor is a good counter-example.
That's funny cos TJ didn't really get close to Loma when they sparred in boxing. Loma made the guy with maybe the best footwork in the UFC look like he'd done a couple of boxercise classes. To shoot on somebody you have to anticipate where they'll be. Loma's hand speed and foot speed make that mighty difficult.
There's also another aspect to it , being a grappler myself and having trained extensively in striking/boxing I noticed that if it comes to grappling especially , some people just don't take to it too well, I think in general it's a bit more complex thing to grasp than boxing/striking so it's not guaranteed that any of the guys mentioned here would make good enough progress despite their athleticism.
Loma is an exceptional example, his footwork is absolutely stunning, and that alone could help him avoid a lot of grappling situations.
I think Loma would be one of the few boxers that would really, really perform in MMA. Before he's up there with the elite of BW he'll need a couple of years at least though.
Nowadays in MMA I would rather be a boxer training takedown defense than a wrestler training striking.
I think strikers are catching up.
It’s so hard to say because unlike boxing, wrestling is present in nearly every school in America. Boxing has a much smaller talent pool of athletes to work with.
There really is no 'best base' for mma
Its just something rogan has repeated over the years!
The best strikers in various diciplines stay where they are and the few that have crossed over in something resembling their prime and taken it seriously have done just fine (cro cop,hunto ,schilt , overeem)
Bjj guys too! most high level guys that have again crossed over have done just fine
Judoka im thinking ronda and karo(pre injuries etc) are high level and again did juat fine
Catch wrestling ...hmm very rare base but..barnett,saku and technicaly the shamrock bros (shoot wrestling ken learned in japan) ....so again crossed over just fine!
Wrestling is the most common base but thats cause this is a u.s promotion that largely recruits from the u.s and wrestling is a high school and college sport there...massive pool if recruits really.
Put pure boxers into a kickboxing or muay thai match and you'll see a bunch of boxers getting TKOed via leg kicks, body kicks, and head kicks. Everything those boxers ever learned about distance is completely wrong the second you add in kicks. 8 points of attack vs 2 points of attack is a major difference.
For this reason boxing is a terrible base for MMA, and we haven't even talked about the grappling aspect yet.
It is virtually impossible to contrast wrestling and say which one is better because they represent two individual components of MMA which are both vital foundations. St Pierre laid the groundwork as to how to master striking and grappling components together in a way that could overwhelm anyone. In terms of pure striking or pure wrestling he definitely was not the best we've seen. He was not gonna beat Koscheck or Fitch, certainly never Hendricks, in a pure wrestling match, and the odds would have been strongly against him in a pure kickboxing match with Condit or Alves. But he could use his jab and cross, along with movement ability he learned doing previous striking forms, to make it impossible for Koscheck or Fitsh to outgrapple him in MMA and even make it massively harder for Hendricks than it would have been in a wrestling match. And his wrestling takedowns were dangerous enough so that he could use their threat to overwhelm Alves, Hardy and at least periodically Condit. It may be enticing to call Conor a counterexample but he is a kickboxer/MT/boxer/multidimensional striker; again, he's not a boxer in MMA.
As of right now, it may be better to be a boxer who can sprawl as opposed to a wrestler who can strike. But that's just for now, and neither one would be enough to get you to the top in MMA even if you were the best pro boxer or inter natl level wrestler. You would need to gain an understanding of offensive and defensive boxing and wrestling, have an effective single leg, double leg, upper body throw/trip, takedown defense, jab, cross, head movement and so on and how to utilize wrestling to make your boxing more effective and vice versa.
I really disagree with Floyd being champ, his career success has always been due to his defensive style, it's a pure master class in the boxing ring but the worst possible style ever for MMA, philly shell, turning your back on opponents, he'd get literally slammed on his head. Floyd would need to completely change his game for MMA so we can't say how good he'd be.
Loma however, different animal, more aggressive style and has a grappling background, I could certainly see success for him.
Why is McGregor a good counter example? He has never proven to be even an average amateur at the domestic level, let alone a very good professional on the world level.
Mayweather has always had a great defense, but he was a very capable offensive fighter earlier in his career. In his prime and fighting guys his size, he'd be a massive puncher in MMA (when Mayweather was at 130 he had more one shot power than Lomachenko has there now).
He could be a very capable fighter but his defensive style he's had for years now really wouldn't lend itself to mma whatsoever, if we're talking early career of course he could have transitioned then due to his age, but im talking about Floyd in his current form.
Well, yeah, Floyd is less than a month short of 41 and has, for all intents and purposes, been retired for almost 3 years. He wouldn't be elite in boxing, anymore, let alone have any chance at transitioning to MMA.
He's made more money in boxing than in MMA, hasn't he?
Wrestling dictates where the fight takes place.
30 year old floyd + mma training = serious force
but yeah ... its all on paper, so we will never know.
Every style has to adapt. MMA wrestling != wrestling/BJJ etc.
Its boxing or wrestling (just pick one), but IMHO boxing has the most useful carry over to MMA and im one of the biggest MT/BJJ nerds.
Anyway .... 10000 people = 10000 different opinions.
He boxed a bunch of Brazilian bartenders and taxi drivers, hardly real ”professional” fights.