Wrestling/Judo Ethos regarding charging money

[asian-glow]

My intention is not to devolve this into a "why is bjj expensive" thread. I'm simply wondering if my small # of experiences mirrors their respective communities at large.

Judo
The 2 judo instructors I trained with were older dudes in their 50's who trained out of borrowed spaces. They didn't care at all about money and taught simply for the love of the sport. Both had been training since they were young.

Wrestling
I'm currently learning wrestling from a guy who used to wrestle in high school. He's told me about numerous coaches/wrestlers, even one who was at the national level in his day, who would have no problem coaching/wrestling with me for free. I was asking how much it would cost and my friend gave me a bewildered response - like accepting money for doing so was unheard of.

Many of the wrestlers who do this, including my friend, seem to have a classic coming-of-age flavor to their start in wrestling. Wrestling gave them an identity. Their coaches poured their resources into their kids and some of these coaches became father figures in their kids' lives. The subsequent generation of wrestlers seem to feel an indebtedness to pay it forward. I suspect this creates a wrestling ethos where it would somehow feel wrong to accept money for something which was given to them for free. Perhaps this ethos is only possible because the American educational system supports wrestling. It would still not explain what I perceive to be a common spirit in judo.

 

[lechien]

Actually it is not entirely true, I know of judo club that are run by full time instructor.

I also know of judo club that are run by instructors that have a job outside judo

None of the judo clubs are free either .

So what happened about you pay the rent, mats etcc? What happen to the profit?

I bet you that they wish they could compensate their instructors but my guess is they are using the profit differenly.

If there is no profit, then they need to reconsider some of their strategies.

 

[killakoy]

For Judo, Kano never said anything about a teacher couldn't take payment. However, it developed in the US a lot like your experience with wrestling. Immigrants were poor, no one would be able to afford the luxury of paying for recreational activities. Instructors taught because it allowed a community to learn the art and a place for them to practice it. After a bit, it became something you pay forward. My instructor didn't get paid to teach me, but I have a responsibility to pass on what I've learned. That type of thinking becomes ingrained. At our club, we have an annual membership for under $100. This is to pay the USJF registration/insurance and basic costs. Your belt is gifted to you at promotion from the club. All instructors are volunteers. The principle behind this is that anyone can do Judo and cost should never be made as a barrier.

In Japan, Judo teachers can be an occupation. PE in high school and University coaches are positions for those with the right pedigree. In France, Judo also has professional coaches and athletes. It's only here, that it's not really a thing.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Judo and wrestling are older in the US than BJJ. I believe the cost being low or perhaps free is partly because they are following an old business model with rec centers, volunteer coaching, and older guys with good jobs who don't depend on Judo to pay their bills.

Judo and wrestling was and is marketed differently than BJJ. BJJ was shown to have success early in MMA over other styles, so it was deemed by some and promoted by some to be the "best martial art". It was also promoted as a lifestyle, and "life changing" which I can't recall that stance ever being presented to me with wrestling or Judo. With that kind of mass appeal the demand became higher so the price became higher in respect to that.

Also, Judo is run by a governing body. The one I am accustomed to is USJF. Perhaps USJF only allows sanctioned clubs to charge members so much? I have seen several strictly USJF Judo clubs whose monthly fee is $60. I've never seen them free, but the price was always $60, hmmm. Wrestling is offered through high school. Taxes already pay for it, and I don't believe beyond school there is a high desire to learn wrestling from the general public. Again, supply and demand.

What is interesting to note is that wrestling programs that are offered at a BJJ academy usually follow their same business model. Same with Judo. They become a package deal that is all together different than what they look like on their own in a pure wrestling or Judo setting.

 

[yetanother]

Actually it is not entirely true, I know of judo club that are run by full time instructor.

Don't you live outside of the US?

 

[lechien]

Don't you live outside of the US?

Correct, I live in New Zealand.

But I can tell judo has similar problems in my country like the blog of op.

In fact, both my bjj club runs out of a judo clubs which I happily pay rent to.

We might have a different perspective on how to develop our club.

While we only offer bjj adults classes, we have an affiliate that only does teach kids.

One judo club focus on adults and not so much in kids as it is well established club.

The other is focusing on kids and the adults were usually parents giving judo a try because of the kids .
Their concept is to grow a kid program into an adult team into 6 to 8 years time .

My concept is to get any adults to train and see them leave while they jump through the challenges of life: first job, marRiage, kids, divorce, moving for jobs.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Many of the wrestlers who do this, including my friend, seem to have a classic coming-of-age flavor to their start in wrestling. Wrestling gave them an identity. Their coaches poured their resources into their kids and some of these coaches became father figures in their kids' lives. The subsequent generation of wrestlers seem to feel an indebtedness to pay it forward. I suspect this creates a wrestling ethos where it would somehow feel wrong to accept money for something which was given to them for free.

This is why I am how I am. After I graduated HS, my coach told me "I owed my coach, now you owe" I will never forget that. I have had several places where I have coached or trained inquire about starting a wrestling club, and I always tell them the same thing: I will happily do it for free so long as you dont charge those who cant afford it. At a BJJ gym, thats not an option. I didnt have a dad growing up and I moved out when I was 16 because of an abusive step dad. My coaches were always there to take me to tournaments, pay when I couldnt work to get extra cash in the winter, or buy me a Gatorade when I show up to the state tournament with my shoes, singlet, and nothing else. It is hard for outsiders to understand, but what your coaches forge into your mentality as a human when you are a competitor who is all in, to think that gift sometimes might not be an option to a kid because of money, thats something that is difficult for me to handle. The kids who cant afford it are always the ones who need it the most.

Even with adults, as wrestlers, you have the mentality of humbleness where you dont feel as if an hour of your time to help someone is something worth charging for.

 

[grapplejuice]

My coaches and i have been either paying out of pocket for mat time and coach for free. None of us get paid and none of our kids pay. Well, theoretically they are supposed to, maybe a few do here and there, but mostly it's free. We've had multiple Fargo placers and college all americans come from our camp.

 

[asian-glow]

My coaches and i have been either paying out of pocket for mat time and coach for free. None of us get paid and none of our kids pay. Well, theoretically they are supposed to, maybe a few do here and there, but mostly it's free. We've had multiple Fargo placers and college all americans come from our camp.

Pretty cool. I'd like to do something like this for bjj but I also hear about people not valuing it if you don't charge. Maybe its a policy you have strictly for kids (who can't pay).

 

[Thrawn33]

At my old judo club we'd have poker nights where half of the money went to the "black belt fund" to pay for some of the kids tuition and tournament fees

 

[efficientjudo]

Perhaps this ethos is only possible because the American educational system supports wrestling. It would still not explain what I perceive to be a common spirit in judo.

That the thing - we live in a capitalistic world - people may be willing to coach for free / cheap, but what about the renting the mat space, buying mats, paying the lighting bills, purchasing kit etc.

I love Judo, and that there are many instructors, even high level that will coach for free / cheap - but all that does is devalue the sport. You get used to paying little for good instruction, and you think as a coach that you can't charge a decent rate because you never had to pay it.

That is why BJJ gyms are often run as full time facilities with morning, lunch time, evening classes, while Judo club are looking to rent a community centre twice a week for an hour a time. I can't speak to the US wrestling system from experience, but I imagine that if colleges didn't financially support it, it would either need to go the route of BJJ (charging a sustainable rate) or begin a very real decline (as we are seeing of Judo in many areas).

Both systems have their strengths and faults.

 

[Normot]

My Judo instructors sacrificed so much time and money to serve and develop us kids that I would feel like a peice of shit trying to make a living off teaching kids Judo. Teaching Judo is like providing a community service here in Hawaii. Same goes with wrestling.
Now BJJ? I paid for that knowledge, I'm charging for that knowledge.

The target demographics are so different, Judo and Wrestling take kids and develop their character, BJJ takes adults and gives them a fun release.

 

[feelinCrisp]

In Canada, Ontario at least, you must pay provincial membership + minimum membership cost. Clubs differ in price, but you can expect to pay more than 100 a year. With that being said, BJJ is far more expensive from what I've seen.

 

[grapplejuice]

Pretty cool. I'd like to do something like this for bjj but I also hear about people not valuing it if you don't charge. Maybe its a policy you have strictly for kids (who can't pay).

I depends. If you get them competing right away they will reward themselves and stay motivated (hopefully) kids will be kids, but you just keep helping who you can. I've been coaching since the 90s, and it's been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life, for sure.

 

[grapplejuice]

My Judo instructors sacrificed so much time and money to serve and develop us kids that I would feel like a peice of shit trying to make a living off teaching kids Judo. Teaching Judo is like providing a community service here in Hawaii. Same goes with wrestling.
Now BJJ? I paid for that knowledge, I'm charging for that knowledge.

The target demographics are so different, Judo and Wrestling take kids and develop their character, BJJ takes adults and gives them a fun release.

that's the best I've ever heard anyone put it.

 

[yetanother]

From observation the whole judo/wrestling build character thing doesn't seem to be universal.

 

[Uchi Mata]

This is why I am how I am. After I graduated HS, my coach told me "I owed my coach, now you owe" I will never forget that. I have had several places where I have coached or trained inquire about starting a wrestling club, and I always tell them the same thing: I will happily do it for free so long as you dont charge those who cant afford it. At a BJJ gym, thats not an option. I didnt have a dad growing up and I moved out when I was 16 because of an abusive step dad. My coaches were always there to take me to tournaments, pay when I couldnt work to get extra cash in the winter, or buy me a Gatorade when I show up to the state tournament with my shoes, singlet, and nothing else. It is hard for outsiders to understand, but what your coaches forge into your mentality as a human when you are a competitor who is all in, to think that gift sometimes might not be an option to a kid because of money, thats something that is difficult for me to handle. The kids who cant afford it are always the ones who need it the most.

Even with adults, as wrestlers, you have the mentality of humbleness where you dont feel as if an hour of your time to help someone is something worth charging for.

Great story. It also gets at a central difference between wrestling (and to a lesser extent Judo) and BJJ in the US: wrestling and Judo are seen as developmental vehicles for kids, BJJ is a hobby mostly for adults. If you grew up in an activity with the ethos that it built character and developed strong mental habits and good life skills, well, that's a hell of a thing to put a price tag on. But if something's just one of many potential ways of having fun and staying in shape for adults, then why wouldn't you charge for it?

 

[QingTian]

Great story. It also gets at a central difference between wrestling (and to a lesser extent Judo) and BJJ in the US: wrestling and Judo are seen as developmental vehicles for kids, BJJ is a hobby mostly for adults. If you grew up in an activity with the ethos that it built character and developed strong mental habits and good life skills, well, that's a hell of a thing to put a price tag on. But if something's just one of many potential ways of having fun and staying in shape for adults, then why wouldn't you charge for it?

There is a feeling I have that I'm sure others share where the development you get from Judo or wrestling comes from the work you put in. Therefore it doesn't feel as right to charge lots of money. Unlike BJJ where it's all about paying for secret techniques

Still if we're talking about developmental vehicles, that's what McDojo's are selling to parents, and nobody is complaining there.