Wrestlers Dominating the UFC...

[Typrune Goatley]

It is true. Edson may have been able to finish the fight when he sprawled on a rocked Lee.

Because knees to the head were prohibited from that position, Lee was able to recover.

 

[moreorless87]

The worst is back of the head strikes being banned. Watching the Lee/Barboza fight, I notice how fighters game the system by burying their head for takedowns so the striker can only hit the back of the head. If there were no limits for strikes, Lee would have had to hit the takedown right away. Barboza could have finished the fight if there were no rules. Barboza was forced to wait to get in a position for legal strikes rather than finish the fight right there.

In some situations like an opponent having back mount for example it can't be helped but personally I think turtling when hurt presenting the back of your head to an opponent should get you TKOed, the same as it would standing.

 

[DianS]

I'm a little lost in this whole argument. I thought they basically got rid of kneeing opponents heads on the ground, and using headbutts and stuff because wrestlers (namely Kerr, Coleman, and Vovchanchyn) were ending fights in 30 seconds. I seem to remember basically an entire round prior to barboza tagging lee that if lee had spent it working on kneeing his grounded opponent in the face i struggle to see where barboza gets his shot.

Edit: to sum it up, leg strikes to grounded opponents heads favors wrestlers, not weakens them

 

[moreorless87]

I'm a little lost in this whole argument. I thought they basically got rid of kneeing opponents heads on the ground, and using headbutts and stuff because wrestlers (namely Kerr, Coleman, and Vovchanchyn) were ending fights in 30 seconds. I seem to remember basically an entire round prior to barboza tagging lee that if lee had spent it working on kneeing his grounded opponent in the face i struggle to see where barboza gets his shot.

Edit: to sum it up, leg strikes to grounded opponents heads favors wrestlers, not weakens them

Wrestlers did end some fights with knees as highlighted with Coleman/Goes but actually Kerr got finished with them by Igor and Herring.

The blocked desperation takedown especially becomes much more dangerous when someone can open up with knees.

 

[MikeMcMann]

It was all a part of the same subject matter and never differentiated. Grammar dictates that a "new idea" should start a new paragraph.

Here is your post with two simple breaks in it and its infitinetly more readable.

Presentation matters. It now has an opening, a body and conclusion.

I've seen a lot of "MMA has evolved" comments in regards to fighters and the sport and it seems that the wrestlers always have the advantage.

Watching Lee vs Barboza last night highlights an "evolutionary point" in regards to MMA... removing strikes to the head of a grounded opponent has probably been the single most powerful "tool" for the wrestler in the UFC. Barboza spin kicks Lee's head (almost into Bolivia) and Lee shoots for a failed take down. If the grounded strikes were still allowed, it would have been an easy finish for Barboza. Wrestlers can take advantage of this rule by shooting for take downs, no matter how weak and never put themselves in position to pay for those shots. In how many fights have we seen that same attempt end the same way?

With ground strikes allowed, I don't think that wrestlers would be shooting in as much without being confident in the take down for fear of paying with their skull. Bringing back the strikes may or may not be dangerous for the fighters but I think it would put an end to a lot of the "lay-n-pray" fights that we see all too much.

 

[JustBleed69]

I've seen a lot of "MMA has evolved" comments in regards to fighters and the sport and it seems that the wrestlers always have the advantage. Watching Lee vs Barboza last night highlights an "evolutionary point" in regards to MMA... removing strikes to the head of a grounded opponent has probably been the single most powerful "tool" for the wrestler in the UFC. Barboza spin kicks Lee's head (almost into Bolivia) and Lee shoots for a failed take down. If the grounded strikes were still allowed, it would have been an easy finish for Barboza. Wrestlers can take advantage of this rule by shooting for take downs, no matter how weak and never put themselves in position to pay for those shots. In how many fights have we seen that same attempt end the same way? With ground strikes allowed, I don't think that wrestlers would be shooting in as much without being confident in the take down for fear of paying with their skull. Bringing back the strikes may or may not be dangerous for the fighters but I think it would put an end to a lot of the "lay-n-pray" fights that we see all too much.

Wrestling may very well always be the best base for MMA and the numbers of top fighters that are former wrestlers show that.

You get to dictate where the fight goes, it gives you extreme mental and physical fortitude, and it gives you a massive amount of kinesthetic awareness.

BJJ and Striking arts are very necessary to the sport as well, however, someone coming from a wrestling background will almost always learn those skills rapidly faster than an untrained person would.

 

[MikeMcMann]

And TS I need clarification to your post?

Fighters can strike the head of grounded opponents. You see ground and pound punches all the time and standing punches to the head. So are you talking about punches to the 'back of the head' of a grounded opponent or maybe kicks or knees to the head of a grounded opponent? As I do think both should be allowed.

And yes one of the worst abuse cases I think of re abusing the grounded opponent, no strikes to the back of the head was Cain/JDS 2 fight. Cain just kept shooting for and clinging to JDS's ankle, could not immediate get td but clung to that ankle offering JDS the back of his the entire time but making it otherwise hard for JDS to strike him. It would last minutes upon minutes with Cain stuck to that ankle but making sure really only the back of his was exposed to a serious strike while trying to drag JDS down.

I remember thinking if that rule was not there JDS would have easily ko'd him with strikes to the back of the head and in a street fight Cain would never beat JDS.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Highschool wrestler detected who thinks he is still Al Bundy reliving his glory years. Lot of BS addressed below.

Wrestling may very well always be the best base for MMA and the numbers of top fighters that are former wrestlers show that.

You don't have proof of that at all.

to demonstrate that you have to show that equal numbers of of other arts, with athlete in their prime entered MMA and yet Wrestling still dominated and that is not the fact.

Wrestlers, not having a pro athletics outlet flocked into this sport in massive numbers. MASSIVE. So you would expect they have significant representation in the top ranks just percentage wise.

You get to dictate where the fight goes,

This is false. You may or may not get to dictate and then depends on how good the wrestler is versus how good the opponent is. Sherk did not dictate to Penn amongst many others I can point to if you want. And you providing examples of when a wrestler does dictate just makes my point. It is athlete and skill level based.

it gives you extreme mental and physical fortitude, and it gives you a massive amount of kinesthetic awareness.

Other arts and the top athletes in those arts have these same things dude.

BJJ and Striking arts are very necessary to the sport as well, however, someone coming from a wrestling background will almost always learn those skills rapidly faster than an untrained person would.

lol. What proof do you have of that? Look how few top strikers in their prime have entered the sport and yet what a high percentage have done well simply by learning decent tdd and some bjj defense. Now imagine if from the top ranks of all strikers you got the numbers coming over like wresting did? There is no reason to believe top strikers would not dominate the sport every bit as much as wrestlers did or more.

 

[TrueFightFan]

Wrestling as always been the great equalizer in mma, and mma wrestling is evolving into a whole different beast with wrestlers developing a striking game and now adopting jiu jitsu morphing wrestling look at times...

That part I get but with no strikes to the head of a grounded opponent, you can have those "panic" shots that save them and allow them to take a break, like Lee did last night.

 

[TrueFightFan]

And TS I need clarification to your post?

Fighters can strike the head of grounded opponents. You see ground and pound punches all the time and standing punches to the head. So are you talking about punches to the 'back of the head' of a grounded opponent or maybe kicks or knees to the head of a grounded opponent? As I do think both should be allowed.

And yes one of the worst abuse cases I think of re abusing the grounded opponent, no strikes to the back of the head was Cain/JDS 2 fight. Cain just kept shooting for and clinging to JDS's ankle, could not immediate get td but clung to that ankle offering JDS the back of his the entire time but making it otherwise hard for JDS to strike him. It would last minutes upon minutes with Cain stuck to that ankle but making sure really only the back of his was exposed to a serious strike while trying to drag JDS down.

I remember thinking if that rule was not there JDS would have easily ko'd him with strikes to the back of the head and in a street fight Cain would never beat JDS.

That's what I meant. I can edit but I thought the point is understood. Knees and kicks to the head or, as you and a few others have pointed out, strikes to the back of the head have really made it easier for wrestlers to dominate. Also, the 12-6 elbow would kill a wrestler trying to hang on to an ankle with his head tucked down.

 

[robbie]

I've seen a lot of "MMA has evolved" comments in regards to fighters and the sport and it seems that the wrestlers always have the advantage. Watching Lee vs Barboza last night highlights an "evolutionary point" in regards to MMA... removing strikes to the head of a grounded opponent has probably been the single most powerful "tool" for the wrestler in the UFC. Barboza spin kicks Lee's head (almost into Bolivia) and Lee shoots for a failed take down. If the grounded strikes were still allowed, it would have been an easy finish for Barboza. Wrestlers can take advantage of this rule by shooting for take downs, no matter how weak and never put themselves in position to pay for those shots. In how many fights have we seen that same attempt end the same way? With ground strikes allowed, I don't think that wrestlers would be shooting in as much without being confident in the take down for fear of paying with their skull. Bringing back the strikes may or may not be dangerous for the fighters but I think it would put an end to a lot of the "lay-n-pray" fights that we see all too much.

You can punch, elbow the head and choke a grounded opponent. You are not allowed to kick or knee the head of a grounded opponent. GnP is still very viable as Lee demonstrated, Lee did not give Barboza time and space to utilize his kicking offense in addition going with a southpaw stance to avoid getting his lead leg pounded. Lee is a great wrestler with outstanding passing skills. He made it to mount so many times I lost track of the number. Props to Barboza for being tough, but he really needs to improve his wrestling and particularly bottom skills if he ever wants to be a title contender.

 

[moreorless87]

Highschool wrestler detected who thinks he is still Al Bundy reliving his glory years. Lot of BS addressed below.


You don't have proof of that at all.

to demonstrate that you have to show that equal numbers of of other arts, with athlete in their prime entered MMA and yet Wrestling still dominated and that is not the fact.

Wrestlers, not having a pro athletics outlet flocked into this sport in massive numbers. MASSIVE. So you would expect they have significant representation in the top ranks just percentage wise.


This is false. You may or may not get to dictate and then depends on how good the wrestler is versus how good the opponent is. Sherk did not dictate to Penn amongst many others I can point to if you want. And you providing examples of when a wrestler does dictate just makes my point. It is athlete and skill level based.

Other arts and the top athletes in those arts have these same things dude.
lol. What proof do you have of that? Look how few top strikers in their prime have entered the sport and yet what a high percentage have done well simply by learning decent tdd and some bjj defense. Now imagine if from the top ranks of all strikers you got the numbers coming over like wresting did? There is no reason to believe top strikers would not dominate the sport every bit as much as wrestlers did or more.

The big issue really is that US wrestling has always been a big talent pool for MMA because theres almost no earning potential in it so its much easier to get people to switch, with MMA becoming increasingly US centric under the near UFC monopoly that's only pushed further.

As you say I think it stands out that a pretty high percentage of elite kickboxers who's switched to MMA have had success. Personally I think this is less about one skillset over another(although the very best situation is getting into multiple MA as early as possible) and more about mentality, any good kickboxer is going to have to have the mentality to take punishment but not all grapplers do.

 

[TrueFightFan]

Highschool wrestler detected who thinks he is still Al Bundy reliving his glory years. Lot of BS addressed below.




You don't have proof of that at all.

to demonstrate that you have to show that equal numbers of of other arts, with athlete in their prime entered MMA and yet Wrestling still dominated and that is not the fact.

Wrestlers, not having a pro athletics outlet flocked into this sport in massive numbers. MASSIVE. So you would expect they have significant representation in the top ranks just percentage wise.


This is false. You may or may not get to dictate and then depends on how good the wrestler is versus how good the opponent is. Sherk did not dictate to Penn amongst many others I can point to if you want. And you providing examples of when a wrestler does dictate just makes my point. It is athlete and skill level based.

Other arts and the top athletes in those arts have these same things dude.
lol. What proof do you have of that? Look how few top strikers in their prime have entered the sport and yet what a high percentage have done well simply by learning decent tdd and some bjj defense. Now imagine if from the top ranks of all strikers you got the numbers coming over like wresting did? There is no reason to believe top strikers would not dominate the sport every bit as much as wrestlers did or more.

Under the current rules, I don't want to have to admit it, but he is correct. The current game favors the wrestler.

 

[TrueFightFan]

You can punch, elbow the head and choke a grounded opponent. You are not allowed to kick or knee the head of a grounded opponent. GnP is still very viable as Lee demonstrated, Lee did not give Barboza time and space to utilize his kicking offense in addition going with a southpaw stance to avoid getting his lead leg pounded. Lee is a great wrestler with outstanding passing skills. He made it to mount so many times I lost track of the number. Props to Barboza for being tough, but he really needs to improve his wrestling and particularly bottom skills if he ever wants to be a title contender.

Under the current rules, Lee is the prototype. My point was that if kicks or knees, also strikes to the back of the head, were allowed, Barboza would have finished Lee.

 

[TrueFightFan]

I'm a little lost in this whole argument. I thought they basically got rid of kneeing opponents heads on the ground, and using headbutts and stuff because wrestlers (namely Kerr, Coleman, and Vovchanchyn) were ending fights in 30 seconds. I seem to remember basically an entire round prior to barboza tagging lee that if lee had spent it working on kneeing his grounded opponent in the face i struggle to see where barboza gets his shot.

Edit: to sum it up, leg strikes to grounded opponents heads favors wrestlers, not weakens them

Maybe, but it eliminates the "safe shots" that are taken all of the time by wrestlers or "panic wrestlers". You would no longer be able to just shoot randomly hoping to get a takedown, because if you didn't, you would get smashed into Bolivia.

 

[robbie]

The worst is back of the head strikes being banned. Watching the Lee/Barboza fight, I notice how fighters game the system by burying their head for takedowns so the striker can only hit the back of the head. If there were no limits for strikes, Lee would have had to hit the takedown right away. Barboza could have finished the fight if there were no rules. Barboza was forced to wait to get in a position for legal strikes rather than finish the fight right there.

Looping punches to the side of the head (temple, ear, jaw, etc.), elbow to the neck/shoulder area and chokes were available to Barboza. I think Barboza was worn out from the damage he took and from being on bottom. Despite being rocked, Lee was able to win the scramble and secured position on Barboza. I like Barboza, but this was a very one sided fight with the exception of the one wheel kick that landed.

 

[The Bard]

The worst is back of the head strikes being banned. Watching the Lee/Barboza fight, I notice how fighters game the system by burying their head for takedowns so the striker can only hit the back of the head. If there were no limits for strikes, Lee would have had to hit the takedown right away. Barboza could have finished the fight if there were no rules. Barboza was forced to wait to get in a position for legal strikes rather than finish the fight right there.

I think leaving only the back of the head exposed should be considered a lack of intelligent defense. Because it clearly is.

 

[TallGHunter]

I've seen a lot of "MMA has evolved" comments in regards to fighters and the sport and it seems that the wrestlers always have the advantage. Watching Lee vs Barboza last night highlights an "evolutionary point" in regards to MMA... removing strikes to the head of a grounded opponent has probably been the single most powerful "tool" for the wrestler in the UFC. Barboza spin kicks Lee's head (almost into Bolivia) and Lee shoots for a failed take down. If the grounded strikes were still allowed, it would have been an easy finish for Barboza. Wrestlers can take advantage of this rule by shooting for take downs, no matter how weak and never put themselves in position to pay for those shots. In how many fights have we seen that same attempt end the same way? With ground strikes allowed, I don't think that wrestlers would be shooting in as much without being confident in the take down for fear of paying with their skull. Bringing back the strikes may or may not be dangerous for the fighters but I think it would put an end to a lot of the "lay-n-pray" fights that we see all too much.

l think if a guy claims to be a wrestler you shouldn't be able to punch him even when standing.
Knees on takedown, mount, taking the back, grabbing a choke..... there is all kinds of defending the TD. Grow a set and learn to deal with it. Better yet go watch kickboxing or boxing. This sport doesn't suit you.

 

[TrueFightFan]

Looping punches to the side of the head (temple, ear, jaw, etc.), elbow to the neck/shoulder area and chokes were available to Barboza. I think Barboza was worn out from the damage he took and from being on bottom. Despite being rocked, Lee was able to win the scramble and secured position on Barboza. I like Barboza, but this was a very one sided fight with the exception of the one wheel kick that landed.

It still forces you to "accommodate" the "shot" fighter. If he puts himself into a trouble position, it should be a "fuck him" attitude, not reward him for turtling.

 

[Fizzee Water]

If they allowed knees on the ground, it would even the playing field a bit for strikers.