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Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Limbo Pete, Feb 4, 2017.

  1. Limbo Pete Super Samoderator Belt

    Limbo Pete
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    Alright, the details have been hammered out and we are now in the prep time portion leading up to the next debate
    Topic is the civil war which, going by all the threads lately, should prove entertaining
    Thread goes up in about a week and a half
     
    #321
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  2. Limbo Pete Super Samoderator Belt

    Limbo Pete
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    Thread goes up next Saturday, or sooner if both contestants are ready before then
     
    #322
  3. Lead /Led/

    Lead
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    Update?
     
    #323
  4. Limbo Pete Super Samoderator Belt

    Limbo Pete
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    We pushed it back. Neither guy was ready to go last weekend. We're almost there now, just waiting on one more thing. I wanted to get all our ducks in a row before starting as this one requires a fair bit of research and it's better imo to have a drawn out time before starting rather than lengthy interruptions during.
     
    #324
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  5. silus_2000 Gold Belt

    silus_2000
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    @Trotsky claims there is absolutely no evidence that "liberal welfare policies" have negatively affected black communities. Sounds like a debate.
     
    #325
  6. Trotsky Yellow Card

    Trotsky
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    I suppose (correct me if I'm wrong) that your evidence will be progressively higher nominal "reliance" (acceptance of entitlements), which both correlates with greater access to entitlements and higher reliance for all racial groups and economic strata as the employment market becomes post-industrial and de-urbanized, and you will ignore pre-austerity rises in upward mobility and access to higher learning.

    It is funny that my "absolutely no evidence" language has actually presented you with a threshold of proof that you're comfortable with, though. Fertile ground for you to copy and paste google searches without learning anything.

    Any particular reason why you chose to return my claim with bald ad homs in our exchange instead of utilizing your surely-existent arguments to the contrary?
     
    #326
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  7. silus_2000 Gold Belt

    silus_2000
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    The response was for you to properly support your claims....
    And it looks like you're avoiding it.
     
    #327
  8. Trotsky Yellow Card

    Trotsky
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    The claim that entitlements historically allow for greater economic viability without limiting upward mobility for lower classes and the ethnic groups that comprise them? Ok.

    The following study regards the providing of welfare benefits correlating with acquired self-sufficiency for low-skill workers

    https://www.brookings.edu/testimonies/how-to-reduce-poverty-and-increase-economic-mobility/


    Since you seem like you would be particularly receptive to arguments critical of Hillary and Bill Clinton, here is a piece that describes how their gutting of welfare destroyed black families.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/why-it-matters-that-hillary-clinton-championed-welfare-reform/

    Gutting of welfare and conditioning of eligibility proved not to incentivize social conformity for future eligibility, but to lock the lowest income brackets into destitution. Clinton's 1990 welfare reform, though effective in assisting particularly targeted groups, reeked havoc on the African American community and helped accelerate black entrenchment into the justice system.
     
    #328
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  9. silus_2000 Gold Belt

    silus_2000
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    Your job is to show how beneficial these welfare policies have been for black communities. Put that into focus and go find some shit. You keep trying to skirt the topic, when you should be addressing it head on.
     
    #329
  10. Trotsky Yellow Card

    Trotsky
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    That is not my job. But, to be clear, instead of rebutting your claim that they have hurt black communities by showing their correlation with declines in poverty (and rises when they are revoked) and the absence of negative correlation with social mobility, you want me to prove that the correlation is exclusive and to dismiss the influence of other factors like discrimination laws and affirmative action?

    I have a feeling that you realize that's a ludicrous redirection and shift in argument, and you are trying to skirt your already-very-friendly burden of persuasion. You can look at black poverty rates against the allowance and amendment of entitlements over time (~1937, 1960, 1980, 1996) and realize that the macroeconomic data clearly pushes the burden onto your argument.
     
    #330
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  11. silus_2000 Gold Belt

    silus_2000
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    So in summary, you still refuse to cite anything related to how beneficial these policies have been to black communities.

    The debate proposition is "Welfare policies have benefited black communities". You're for, i'm against. Do you want to do this or not?
     
    #331
  12. Jack V Savage Funklord of the USA and the Nicest Guy on Sherdog

    Jack V Savage
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    How is that even a debate? He's obviously correct.
     
    #332
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  13. Trotsky Yellow Card

    Trotsky
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    YOU: Welfare benefits hurt black communities
    ME: No, they don't. Here are improvements that happened concurrent to and following welfare expansion, and the decline following its revocation
    YOU: See, you can't prove they help. Therefore they hurt.

    No, I don't want to do this, because it's an asinine argument that can be summarily concluded. If your claim is that welfare has hurt black America, then show it so it can be evaluated. Make your point. Don't take that (ludicrous) contention as self-evident and ask others to disprove it.
     
    #333
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  14. silus_2000 Gold Belt

    silus_2000
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    Sigh...there you are AGAIN referring back to statistics that did not directly address the subject at hand. If the subject is a particular demographic, then your stats need to reflect that. The fact that I even have to say that should be embarrassing to you.

    You debate like a politician. Sidestepping and deflecting, claiming you have stats when you submitted nothing of relevance. The bottom line is that a policy has to justify its existence by its performance. And again, I haven't heard one fucking thing from you that backs the claim that these policies have been overall beneficial for these particular communities. But according to you that's apparently not even worth debating!
     
    #334
  15. Trotsky Yellow Card

    Trotsky
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    Holy fuck, you can't be this stupid. I don't think I've ever struggled this badly to explain something so remedial on here.

    Refer back to your first post in this thread, proposing topic for debate. You said welfare hurts black families. I said "there's absolutely no evidence of that." Then, you got uppity.

    (1) You said welfare HURTS blacks. (2) I said there's no evidence that is true and presented evidence to the contrary

    Therefore, it's on (3) you to show it hurts them, and it's on (4) me to indict your evidence, thereby fulfilling my claim that there is no evidence for your assertion

    It's not on me to prove a lack of evidence to your made-up claim: the fact that I have presented evidence to the contrary has been out of sheer frustration that you refuse to actually argue your dip shit claim.
     
    #335
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  16. Trotsky Yellow Card

    Trotsky
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    This is infuriating. I have this guy making that asinine claim and wanting proof of there being no evidence to support his claim (as opposed to his citation of this supposed evidence), while ignoring evidence that supports an opposite inference.

    This is not an adult conversation.
     
    #336
  17. silus_2000 Gold Belt

    silus_2000
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    This is where I stopped reading. Holy shit. For the THIRD fucking time, you did not present anything that addressed the subject at hand. Am I talking to a wall? Jesus christ. Who the fuck taught you that repeating something makes it true?? You cited NOTHING relevant to the topic of the black community and welfare. Do you get it now? Do you need that repeated a 4th time?
     
    #337
  18. Trotsky Yellow Card

    Trotsky
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    Fine. I officially rescind any supposed offerings of evidence or references thereto. As has been established, such wouldn't be consistent with the proper argumentative structure in the first place.

    Now do your job and back up your claim that started everything. I won't even ask you to provide evidence within the context of reforming welfare to require drug testing, which was the original topic, because that is an indefensible stance that you assumed and I know you cannot defend it (which is why you made the claim that "Liberal welfare polices have helped to destroy black communities" in the first place).

    All you need to do is provided some evidence that "Liberal welfare polices have helped to destroy black communities." Go.

    If you need help forming your argument, I've seen material from the National Review (lol) and the Cato Institute (less lol) that may provide you a starting point. But if you have no desire to actually support your point, the starting point of this annoying back-and-forth, then we are done here.
     
    #338
  19. silus_2000 Gold Belt

    silus_2000
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    If you rescind your offering of evidence then you need to rescind your claim. That's how this works.
     
    #339
  20. Trotsky Yellow Card

    Trotsky
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    Holy shit, you can't possibly be this stupid.

    When you say "welfare hurts black people," it's on you to back up the claim, not others to prove your lack of evidence, as proving a negative is chiefly impracticable. That's how arguments work. Yeah, I'm done here.
     
    #340
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