Worlds '18

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by MyTopGameSucks, May 31, 2018.

  1. yetanother

    yetanother Purple Belt

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    I find it utterly horrible that something like that would be a good strategy.
    Also entangling a 50/50 from top, getting swept and sweeping back would be a win.
     
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  2. yetanother

    yetanother Purple Belt

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    Why not -2?
     
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  3. EGDM

    EGDM Blue Belt

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    Another part of the argument is that if they forbade closeouts we'd get worked matches between teammates. I think this would end up being a non-issue, and even if it were, frankly, I'd rather see a convincing exhibition match between friends than a closeout.

    Failing an outright ban, I'd favor rule where if you if you close out or otherwise give up a medal that's fine for the recipient but the lesser-placing competitor gets nothing (basically, one of the competitors must withdraw from the tournament in order to give away the medal).

    As far as scoring in general goes, I've thought for a long time that we should reward outcome over process. Points for position (top/side/kob/mount/back) rather than takedown/sweep/pass. If you end up in side mount, who cares how you got there, really? Shouldn't a throw to side mount be worth just as much as a takedown and a guard pass? In terms of martial efficiency it's a much better sequence, since you avoid the guy's guard entirely. (Possible exceptions for scoring on reversals from failed submission attempts.)

    This shift in scoring would remove a huge amount of error and uncertainty from the officiating, as point are determined by the quality of stable positions instead of depending on perfect memory of whatever chaotic sequence just occurred.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  4. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

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    Your breathless hyperbole does you no credit.

    The ultimate result in any case, as you yourself point out, would be more action between the competitors, and as a bonus no more reliance on questionable ref decisions to break ties, which is the whole point.

    You basically grant and illustrate this point yourself for me when trying to concoct hypotheticals to argue against.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
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  5. kpoz12

    kpoz12 The No Life King Platinum Member

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    BUCHECHA VS LO FULL MATCH VID!!!

     
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  6. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    That’s how I see it. For all the talk in bjj of curbing your ego, I don’t see why so many people worry about the repucussions in the dojo afterwards should you decide to compete against each other.
     
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  7. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    And in other disciplines you still see respect when teammates compete. I've seen Saenchai compete in muay thai against teammates/students of his, and he passed up opportunities to really damage them or hurt them worse than he would have against a typical opponent. But he still puts the beats to them. You're competing and that's what you're supposed to do. Close outs just feel very political to me.

    A nice recent example was Keenan Cornelius and Josh Hinger. I'm used to seeign Atos close-outs but they were in the gi and no-gi finals at the American Nationals I think (IBJJF event) and they competed for real in the finals of both. I think Keenan took gi and Hinger took no-gi but it didn't look like a work to me. They were really going at it.
     
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  8. Rebelfett

    Rebelfett Likebot

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    <Lmaoo><Lmaoo>
     
  9. jr jr

    jr jr Purple Belt

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    Shove closeouts where the sun don't shine.... Serena vs Venus (per Wiki)

    • Hard courts: Serena 10–9
    • Clay courts: Serena, 2–1
    • Grass courts: Serena, 4–2
    • Carpet: Serena, 1–0
    • Grand Slam matches: Serena, 10–5
    • Grand Slam finals: Serena, 7–2
    • Year-End Championships matches: Serena, 2–1
    • Year-End Championships finals: Serena, 1–0
    • All finals: Serena, 9–3
     
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  10. trustdoesntrust

    trustdoesntrust Purple Belt

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    weren't those matches famously engineered by their dad for one sister to win?
     
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  11. jr jr

    jr jr Purple Belt

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    Possibly, but guess what, they still played. Was there a work??? who knows.
     
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  12. listrahtes

    listrahtes Brown Belt

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    The work was that their father Put enough needles into them when they grew up that he could have solved africas AIDS problem with it.
     
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  13. okyoureright

    okyoureright Orange Belt

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    Regarding closeouts, I think there's a big divide between what viewers want and what the athletes want. Viewers want tournaments to be knock down, drag out, fight to the death events a la MMA. The problem is, the athletes are probably in Jiu Jitsu because they don't like that environment. Instead of leaving the arena a bloody mess, they want to leave a little sore, eat an acai bowl, go to a brazilian steakhouse, and train again on Monday. The team aspect is very important to them, as opposed to MMA where everyone is just trying to get ahead. Of course I'm generating, but this is the vibe I get. In short, arguing over closeouts for an amateur event is a waste of time.
     
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  14. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    I think that's a false dichotomy. I've been on this forum since the mid 00's and close outs have always been debated on here. Those of us that don't like them for the most part don't want to see "knock down, drag out, fight to the death events a la MMA". We just want to see a finals match for the most prestigious title in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu be an actual match that is contested. Finals matches in general aren't very exciting and most of us don't expect them to be. But they are contested when they aren't between teammates. That's all we are asking for. That teammates are expected to compete should they meet. ADCC forces teammates to compete. Many organizations force it. It shouldn't be a big deal.

    Yes you're right. It's an amateur event. But there are many other amateur martial arts championships where people decide to compete in the finals match. BJJ is actually the only martial art I can think of where 2 teammates will not compete (or at least pretend to compete) for gold.
     
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  15. yetanother

    yetanother Purple Belt

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    I don't want to close out. What's a gold medal that you won because someone gave it to you worth?
     
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  16. jr jr

    jr jr Purple Belt

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    I don't care for bjj to be mma. I don't know a single fan of grappling (all 12 of us) who does.

    If you can't have a match with a team mate, then do we only allow one competitor from each affiliation? Does Sunkist only send one person per weight class to the Olympic trials?
     
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  17. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I understand why the athletes may treat it as an amateur event that isn’t that serious, but that leaves the medal matches being ... amateur events that aren’t that serious.

    Combine with amateur reffing, and you have the pinnacle of sport gi BJJ being an amateurish niche production. That may not be the worst thing, or even a bad thing, but it’s a thing.
     
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  18. trustdoesntrust

    trustdoesntrust Purple Belt

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    One thing I think we can all agree on about closeouts is that the definition of "team" is often nebulous at best. It's one thing for a closeout with two guys who train together every single day, but another for two guys from halfway across the world who just happen to be under the same Alliance banner or whatever.
     
  19. Orion

    Orion Brown Belt

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    Amen
     
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