Work out or sleep?

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Fedorgasm, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Fedorgasm Red Belt

    Fedorgasm
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    I work really long hours, so i find that I'm faced with this decision quite often.

    I don't get enough sleep and I'm also trying to get in shape. But if i have 7 hours until i have to wake up, should i spend an hour working out even though it means I'm only going to get 5 hours sleep? (1 hour workout + 1 hour shower and relax time, since you can't fall asleep immediately after exercise)

    I know your muscles need proper rest or they don't grow, so the correct answer is to do both, exercise and get 8 hours sleep, but for those occasions where both is not possible, which one should i choose?

    And is the answer different for lifting than for cardio?
     
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  2. ThunderL1ps Black Belt

    ThunderL1ps
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    Your workout doesn't have to be an hour. You can get a good workout in with 15-30 minutes that will work both strength and cardio.

    There is always working out in the morning then going to bed later on is a non-issue. It just all depends on how dedicated you are to waking up earlier and making it happen.
     
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  3. TheBookofSpeed The Speed Coach

    TheBookofSpeed
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    Your body does most of its repairs while you sleep. Not enough sleep, not enough recovery. Not enough recovery, reduced or no gains.

    Using HIIT (high intensity interval training) is an excellent way to reduce your training time, especially for cardio. Depending on your current condition you can get the benefits of a 45 minute cardio workout in 15 minutes or less. That's according to a bunch of recent studies anyway.

    If you choose HIIT I suggest incorporating movements that are very similar or the same as movements you use when performing. That triples the duty of the session. You get the cardio workout, you train the muscles you're going to use, and you get training on executing the movements that you're going to use.
     
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  4. ericaz White Belt

    ericaz
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    What i would do since idk your goals, is two major muscle groups a day doing the major lifts for those muscle groups.

    lifting 3x a week separate your days so you always have a rest day between so your catching up on your sleep after each workout.

    cardio can be 2x a week.

    like i said idk your goals and what i just wrote is very basic its what i do when i get really busy with life
     
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  5. PUO3 You are a can.

    PUO3
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    Workout. You will be fine without another hour.

    I work 12 hour shifts and go between nights and days so I definitely know the feelings. It can be hard, but if you have a goal you want to reach youll manage.
     
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  6. Midnighter Black Belt

    Midnighter
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    I haven't slept since 1978.

    You don't need sleep, don't believe the hype.
     
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  7. Fahcough Brown Belt

    Fahcough
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    The workout vs sleep is like the do I workout if I haven't eaten in 8 hours and feel body dragon ass and slowing down
     
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  8. deadshot138 Brown Belt

    deadshot138
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    12 hour shifts? You mean the 'dog doesn't pay mods enough to live without secondary income?
     
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  9. LatFlare EADC

    LatFlare
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    Do you have a link to those studies about doing a 45 min workout in 15 mins?
     
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  10. TheBookofSpeed The Speed Coach

    TheBookofSpeed
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    Keep in mind, this study is an extreme example. It is the one that made the most headlines. There are many others. I just knew where to find this one quick.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0154075

    This is a quick summation of the PLOS one study:
    http://dailynews.mcmaster.ca/article/no-time-to-get-fit-think-again/

    Here's a good article:
    http://www.simplyshredded.com/fit-w...-on-endless-bouts-of-steady-state-cardio.html

    I like HIIT training for stand-up fighting, especially if you use speed more than power like I do, because it replicates a fight. Lulls where you recover followed by a flurry of action followed by another lull.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  11. Bloodhy Blue Belt

    Bloodhy
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    You have to find the balance between training and recovery. If you go balls out for an hour everyday and sleep 5 hrs, it might be too much and you will not recover. On the other hand, if you go to the gym and perform the minimum amount of work needed to see gains despite the 5-6 hours of sleep, then you will improve. I would figure out what is the amount of work you can perform and recover from, and then progressively increase from there.

    I'd be interested to know how HIIT works for you. On the positive side, it's less time consuming and you get more hours of sleep, but on the negative side, it induces more fatigue than LSD...
     
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  12. Fahcough Brown Belt

    Fahcough
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    This monster issue here.

    How do you know what's adequate sleep? I saw a note somewhere the other day that said "Don't set your alarm on your off (work) day; when you wake up is how much sleep you need.
     
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  13. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
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    Solid study the PLOS one. Also, I think it's the longest duration wise I've seen of HIT protocol training. There is definitely no doubt that HIT, at least to some degree, works very well for many things with less time investments. However I think it's important to acknowledge that they are not the same, and do have different adaptions. There are some caveats with the HIT studies out there which a lot of people neglect. First of all are the parameters. Yes, HIT increases Vo2max equally with less investment AND is even better for transporting glucose away from the bloodstream. It's also an excellent way to generally combat metabolic syndrome, and excellent, in accordance with strength training, for most diabetics. However when it comes to the amount of oxidative enzymes and ability to transfer FFAs away from the bloodstream it is debateable. The creation of additional myoglobin in muscles and the capillary network is not going to be as great with HIT, compared to LISS, and the fibertype characteristics go towards either ST or FT depending on the modality.

    The arterial adaptions are also different between the two, highlighted in this study with obese adults: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27255523
    This study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27500951 showed that myocardial vascular hyperaemic reactivity was impaired after HIT training, meaning that the bloodflow back to the coronary arteries after HIT was impaired, which is not optimal for someone in poor shape or with heart problems.

    Most importantly is the central adaptions of the heart. The majority of these HIT studies are simply too short to gauge the proper cardiac hypertrophy effects with HIT training. That or they do not measure them. There is preliminary evidence showing that HIT is certainly not a good training modality when it comes to subjects who are already hypertensive. This study, also from PLOS, highlights some of that: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4372563/ Disclaimer, it was done in rats, but it did manage to test for some of the markers that other studies have not. Hypertensive rats showed a marked reduction in the fibrous tissue of the left ventricle (fibrous tissue is scar tissue which can form in the heart muscle over time with high bloodpressure) with LISS training. It also improved the capillary/fibre ratio markedly. HIT did not improve these factors, actually, it worsened some of them. Here is another simular one in hypertensive rats: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25855305

    Obviously in healthy subjects the story is different, but what it really comes down to is eccentric vs concentric cardiac hypertrophy. The differences has been somewhat well established in endurance trained athletes vs power or strenght athletes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2300466/
    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scr...0100-879X2011007500112&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en

    Eccentric cardiac hypertrophy primarily increases stroke volume and creates a larger and more flexible ventricle (heart chamber), while concentric cardiac hypertrophy increases left ventricle thickness and rigidity. Both have their uses and obviously it's roughly sketched because they overlap somewhat. Still, what drives concentric cardiac hypertrophy is the increase in blood pressure and less diastolic filling (when the heart fills with blood). During HIT some of the same principles are in play, like high blood pressure. The heart also pumps so fast that the diastolic filling is cut short, leading to a more concentric oriented hypertrophy adaption. It is not pathological, like it is when you have chronic high blood pressure, but long term you simply do not reap the same endurance benefits as you do with LISS. The adaptions are different.

    There are more, but I wont keep harping on. Like different energy systems, endothel oxidation, plasma levels in the blood and blood thickness (hematocrit value) and more. I wrote about som in a more reader friendly way some time ago here:
    http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/128248557/

    Last thing I want to mention is parasympathetic vs sympathetic nervous activity and recovery. HIT training is predominantly sympathetic. It's high fueled, adrenaline and action. That will eat into your recovery time and can lead to overworking if not done at the right. That is just keeping it brief, because recovery very much benefits from LISS training.

    So while it cuts training time, sympathetic activity can impact sleep negatively, especially if done before bedtime. It also mean you might need more sleep to recover, than you would doing LISS.

    Both modalities are great, both are needed for an athlete, but they are not the same. IMO, you build capacity and base first (LISS) and then work towards HIT, so it depends on the person.

    Anyway, sorry for the long winded article, but I feel like it's important to contextualise the HIT craze.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  14. JimRussel Purple Belt

    JimRussel
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    No, you can't.

    But that's fine.
     
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  15. TheBookofSpeed The Speed Coach

    TheBookofSpeed
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    Great analysis. Absolutely there is a lot more to consider with HIIT. In the context of this thread I think that it is a viable option for the training-time challenged (like the TS). It certainly is not for everyone and of course, the jury is still out on its effectiveness.

    I do think that it holds a lot of promise for speed training for stand-up fighting (unrelated to the thread I know). That's because of the of the bursts of activity followed by less intense periods. To my mind that simulates the demands of stand-up fighting, especially for one who heavily relies on speed, than other types of workouts.

    Would like to know your thoughts on that.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  16. JonJonesLines Orange Belt

    JonJonesLines
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    Squat/Bench/Deadlift/Press 3x5
    An accessory lift depending on the main exercise for the day
    Then a 10min TABATA.
     
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  17. ThunderL1ps Black Belt

    ThunderL1ps
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    Yes you can.
     
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  18. TheBookofSpeed The Speed Coach

    TheBookofSpeed
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    I was thinking about about all of the data you posted. It made me think back to the section on HIIT that I put in my book. I started the section saying, "This is a good time to re-read the disclaimer at the beginning of this book..." While I explained my reasons for liking HIIT for speed training I added "The next problem is that the jury is still out. While there are many studies that support HIIT and sprint-interval training (SIT), which is very similar, there are some critics as well. The debate is so intense at the time of this writing that it is difficult to draw an acceptable conclusion. "

    One of the main reasons that I took such a cautionary approach is that the high intensity portions of the workouts are downright brutal.

    I said in the book that I think that I'm gambling with my ticker every time that I workout.
     
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  19. Grrrr BE NICE

    Grrrr
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    I am in the same boat....12 hr shifts/rotating shift work/nights and days. Make it work. What else can you do.
     
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  20. Clippy MANSION CLIPPY TAKIN OVER !!!!

    Clippy
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    Sleep with as many blankets as you can find on, you'll sweat to death and get your heart rate up while shedding pounds and catching Zzzzzz
     
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