(WMMA) The myth that 115lbs is a deeper/better division than 135lbs. (JJs poor competition)

[BigMuffler]

Are you going to sit here and tell me 135 puts on better fights than 115? Seriously? You know that's not true.

No, you "know" that's not true. The same way people "knew" Holm would destroy Tate or Wonderboy would destroy Woodley aka biased EYES.

 

[Tachy]

you were doing so well, and then you mentioned cyborg....

If you don't think she's the fighter to beat at 145, or her and Anderson is the fight to have, then I assume you just dislike her.

 

[Tachy]

No, its really not. Cyborg will beat Megan in under a minute. It wouldnt even be close.

Im no Cyborg fan, far from it, but Anderson really is that limited.

Cyborg is the better fighter, but don't discount size and youth, of which Anderson has both
The current 145 champ has nothing for either of them

 

[xhaydenx]

I see quite a few people saying this. Am I the only one who thinks 135 has clearly got better competitors than 115lbs ?

Some people are saying that Joanna's striking is technically one of the best, regardless of weight/gender, in the whole of MMA/the UFC. May I ask WHO she has beaten who has a solid, respectable striking background ?

115 comes across to me as the division full of jack-of-all-trades master of none. Women who have poor boxing, wrestling and BJJ for the most part. That is, their bases are MMA level, none are world champions in their respective backgrounds. Many are 'mixed martial artists' as opposed to being great boxers, judokas and so on.

Joanna's competitors inside the UFC.
Esparza, 2 time all american wrestler.
Penne, trains BJJ. Has never competed outside of MMA.
Letourneau, trains 'boxing/kickboxing'. Has only ever competed in MMA.
Gadelha, multiple BJJ championships.
Kowalkiewicz, started training Krav Maga when she was 16. No championships/never competed outside of MMA.
Andrade, BJJ background, no titles/accolades. Only ever competed in MMA.
Lima, no background in nothing. A 'mixed martial artist'.

So JJ has fought one lady with an okay wrestling background. One lady with a decent BJJ background and a bunch of 'mixed martial artists'.

She has NEVER fought a talented striker in all her MMA career. The striking of all her opponents range from embarrassing to extremely mediocre. Did you see Andrades striking last night ? She ducks her head, looks at the ground, runs aimlessly forward windmilling hoping something lands.




Other 115lbers...
Waterson, Karate background. No championships. Never competed outside of MMA.
Namajunas, Taekwondo background. No championships. Never competed outside of MMA.
Van Zant, background in dancing. No championships. Never competed outside of MMA.
Grasso, no nothing. Never competed outside of MMA.

135lbs has/has had...
An Olympic silver medalist Freestyle Wrestler, Sara McMann. (she has vast amounts of experience in wrestling, to many achievements to list).
An Olympic bronze medalist in Judoka, Ronda Rousey.
Fila Grappling world silver medalist, Miesha Tate.
4 time all american and national champion in Womens Wrestling, Cat Zingano.

Here are the strikers...

Holly Holm
33-2-3 Boxing record.
2-1 Kickboxing record.
Countless titles at multiples weight divisions in Womens Boxing.

Germaine de Randamie
37-0 Muay Thai record. Multiple world championships.

Valentina Shevchenko
58-2-1 Muay Thai record.
2-0 Boxing record.
Countless world titles spanning multiple divisions in Muay Thai.


You then have the current champion Amanda Nunes who has never competed outside of MMA, but has heavy hands with many T/KO victories. Something that can't be said for anyone at 115lbs.



Cliffs:
- 135lbs > 115lbs
- JJ has fought poor competition, no one she has fought is a capable striker. She has fought one wrestler in her whole UFC career.

I do agree that there are no SWs with stand out credentials out side of MMA except for JJ, Gadelha and a few others. Hill has had a few kickboxing fights and Felice was a kickboxing champ - not that you'd think it.

One thing to remember with the 135ers is that there is going to be less of a talent pool the higher the weight class you go for the women. That's not just for MMA either. I mean, yeah, congrats on Mcman for being an olympic wrestler, but wasn't she like one of 4 or 5 competing in that? She certainly hasn't looked like some incredible wrestler in the UFC. Tate handled her and she was struggling hard to do anything against Murphy of all people.

Holly's another one. Yeah, great boxing record but then she looked average against Pennington and Tate for the most part. I can forgive her for how Val schooled her, but other than Ronda, she hasn't really impressed.

I like Zingano, but she got mauled by Pena, and I'm pretty sure Pena doesn't have any amazing credentials.

All that aside though, I think your argument doesn't hold that much weight because at the end of the day this is MMA, not wrestling or kickboxing or BJJ. None of those outside sport achievements really matter once you enter the cage.

Look at someone like Noons. Great boxer, but couldn't put it all together in MMA against these jack of the trade fighters. Holly's another one.

And I think with WMMA just being a jack of all trades barely works at SW. Joanna might be a great striker, but she's got the counter wrestling and the clinch. Look at Tiffany Van Soest. Almost only a striker, had a lot of hype coming into Invicta. Got mauled by a 1-1 and fighter and didn't impress.

 

[BigMuffler]

One thing to remember with the 135ers is that there is going to be less of a talent pool the higher the weight class you go for the women.

Did you actually research this or is it based on "common sense"?

No there are NOT more women than 115 than 125 at all and there are not even more women at 115 than 135.

https://www.tapology.com/rankings/groups/current

115: 306 fighters worldwide
125: 392
135: 317

Don't speak if you don't know what the hell you're talking about and ESPECIALLY don't make stupid assumptions based on what YOU hold as "common sense."

PS. 135 was the most established division (though not the "deepest" numbers wise) before Ronda ever became known.

Protip: common sense (or what many people regard as such) is shit. Especially when you're brainwashed by media to think 145-150 lbs is an "abnormal" weight for women who train grappling and might actually have muscles.

 

[xhaydenx]

re read what he wrote... He wasnt talking about Claudia losing every round

I totally misread that somehow. Whoops.

 

[Thuckey]

Some people are saying that Joanna's striking is technically one of the best, regardless of weight/gender, in the whole of MMA/the UFC. May I ask WHO she has beaten who has a solid, respectable striking background ?

Sometimes you can tell just how fantastic a person is at something just by watching them do it regardless of the opponent.

 

[Co-Co Zola]

I do agree that there are no SWs with stand out credentials out side of MMA except for JJ, Gadelha and a few others. Hill has had a few kickboxing fights and Felice was a kickboxing champ - not that you'd think it.

One thing to remember with the 135ers is that there is going to be less of a talent pool the higher the weight class you go for the women. That's not just for MMA either. I mean, yeah, congrats on Mcman for being an olympic wrestler, but wasn't she like one of 4 or 5 competing in that? She certainly hasn't looked like some incredible wrestler in the UFC. Tate handled her and she was struggling hard to do anything against Murphy of all people.

Holly's another one. Yeah, great boxing record but then she looked average against Pennington and Tate for the most part. I can forgive her for how Val schooled her, but other than Ronda, she hasn't really impressed.

I like Zingano, but she got mauled by Pena, and I'm pretty sure Pena doesn't have any amazing credentials.

All that aside though, I think your argument doesn't hold that much weight because at the end of the day this is MMA, not wrestling or kickboxing or BJJ. None of those outside sport achievements really matter once you enter the cage.

Look at someone like Noons. Great boxer, but couldn't put it all together in MMA against these jack of the trade fighters. Holly's another one.

And I think with WMMA just being a jack of all trades barely works at SW. Joanna might be a great striker, but she's got the counter wrestling and the clinch. Look at Tiffany Van Soest. Almost only a striker, had a lot of hype coming into Invicta. Got mauled by a 1-1 and fighter and didn't impress.

It's not so much having 'credentials' that's the benefit. It's having had a life time of training and then vast experience competing professionally.

Valentina has been doing Muay Thai all her life, she has so much experience competing against the best female Muay Thai practitioners in the world. Competing in stand up fights where you can not 'panic wrestle' (or for grapplers, grappling where you can't strike your way out or to help you win, just pure grappling to get the job done). It really helps hone your skills.

Their is a reason why the best strikers in WMMA such as Valentina, Joanna, Holly, Germaine all have such storied backgrounds.

The other good strikers often are very powerful and aggressive rather than having the elite technique that comes with a life time of honing their craft. (I'm thinking of Cris Cyborg and Amanda Nunes here).

This is the difference to me, at 115lbs. None of the fighters who Joanna has fought yet have that elite experience, that life time of dedication to have mastered striking. Joanna has such good TDD that the other ladies have to stand with her, and they can't hope to compete with her.

Many 115lb fighters started training in less efficient striking arts, they often didn't compete professionally and many started training later in life.

To be fair to Zingano, she had a long lay off and has had a hard time in recent years, she was undefeated in MMA until the Rousey fight where she messed up and she seems to have took it quite badly. Pena is a big strong girl who is a grinder, not a squash match for anyone, that's for sure. Even the best fighters can have poor fights or have their skills deteriorate.

 

[58miles]

No, its really not. Cyborg will beat Megan in under a minute. It wouldnt even be close.

Im no Cyborg fan, far from it, but Anderson really is that limited.

Unfortunately people are blinded by the Megan hype and won't see until she gets easily beat like she stole something by Cyborg, GDR or some other fighter.

 

[ColombianFist]

I agree with you TS.

But i doubt Joanna will got to 135, Shevchenko is there and she beat her in MT also, Holm and Nunes. While Joanna has top striking, she hasn't faced a similar striker with the same amount of training she has, most of her opponents does not have striking accolades or pro experience. Right now i don't see her getting beat since 115 is very thin.

 

[Co-Co Zola]

I agree with you TS.

But i doubt Joanna will got to 135, Shevchenko is there and she beat her in MT also, Holm and Nunes. While Joanna has top striking, she hasn't faced a similar striker with the same amount of training she has, most of her opponents does not have striking accolades or pro experience. Right now i don't see her getting beat since 115 is very thin.

Cheers.

She won't go to 135, but she may go to 125. The UFC are opening the 125lb division. Dana announced it a few weeks back.

Valentina will likely (hopefully) make the cut, Joanna may go up. Hopefully they meet for the inargual title, if Valentina wins the 135lb belt, they could do a champion vs champion for the 2 division champion thing. A man can dream.

(The likes of Holm & Nunes have no chance at making 125 that's for sure).

 

[orangecuse]

It was always obvious why many here said that. Ronda is annoying, JJ more likable. They were embarrassingly even saying that back when the likes of Jessica Penne and Valerie were getting title shots. That's why they had/have no credibility or are just clueless and bias. When they had girls with not even ten pro fights in the top ten. Wasn't PVZ in top ten at one point or that terrible girl she beat Bec? 105lber Waterson was getting close to a title shot. Carla Esparza is the worst least skilled champ ever. It's hilarious that some people still think Jojo is some great fighter.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Cyborg is the better fighter, but don't discount size and youth, of which Anderson has both
The current 145 champ has nothing for either of them

Yeah, but Anderson does not have anything resembling head movement, striking defense or footwork. Only grappling we have seen did not look good either.

 

[Better Every Day]

Look at Tiffany Van Soest. Almost only a striker, had a lot of hype coming into Invicta. Got mauled by a 1-1 and fighter and didn't impress.

Consider also Jorina Baars. Such a dominant world champion that she has sometimes had diffficulty for long stretches finding people willing to fight her. Nearly KO'd Cyborg more than once in their Muay Thai match with each other. How has she done in pro MMA? A record of 1-3, including a loss to Cindy Dandois (whose striking elicits boisterous mockery from Sherdoggers).

 

[carelessandheem]

I see quite a few people saying this. Am I the only one who thinks 135 has clearly got better competitors than 115lbs ?

Some people are saying that Joanna's striking is technically one of the best, regardless of weight/gender, in the whole of MMA/the UFC. May I ask WHO she has beaten who has a solid, respectable striking background ?

115 comes across to me as the division full of jack-of-all-trades master of none. Women who have poor boxing, wrestling and BJJ for the most part. That is, their bases are MMA level, none are world champions in their respective backgrounds. Many are 'mixed martial artists' as opposed to being great boxers, judokas and so on.

Joanna's competitors inside the UFC.
Esparza, 2 time all american wrestler.
Penne, trains BJJ. Has never competed outside of MMA.
Letourneau, trains 'boxing/kickboxing'. Has only ever competed in MMA.
Gadelha, multiple BJJ championships.
Kowalkiewicz, started training Krav Maga when she was 16. No championships/never competed outside of MMA.
Andrade, BJJ background, no titles/accolades. Only ever competed in MMA.
Lima, no background in nothing. A 'mixed martial artist'.

So JJ has fought one lady with an okay wrestling background. One lady with a decent BJJ background and a bunch of 'mixed martial artists'.

She has NEVER fought a talented striker in all her MMA career. The striking of all her opponents range from embarrassing to extremely mediocre. Did you see Andrades striking last night ? She ducks her head, looks at the ground, runs aimlessly forward windmilling hoping something lands.




Other 115lbers...
Waterson, Karate background. No championships. Never competed outside of MMA.
Namajunas, Taekwondo background. No championships. Never competed outside of MMA.
Van Zant, background in dancing. No championships. Never competed outside of MMA.
Grasso, no nothing. Never competed outside of MMA.

135lbs has/has had...
An Olympic silver medalist Freestyle Wrestler, Sara McMann. (she has vast amounts of experience in wrestling, to many achievements to list).
An Olympic bronze medalist in Judoka, Ronda Rousey.
Fila Grappling world silver medalist, Miesha Tate.
4 time all american and national champion in Womens Wrestling, Cat Zingano.

Here are the strikers...

Holly Holm
33-2-3 Boxing record.
2-1 Kickboxing record.
Countless titles at multiples weight divisions in Womens Boxing.

Germaine de Randamie
37-0 Muay Thai record. Multiple world championships.

Valentina Shevchenko
58-2-1 Muay Thai record.
2-0 Boxing record.
Countless world titles spanning multiple divisions in Muay Thai.


You then have the current champion Amanda Nunes who has never competed outside of MMA, but has heavy hands with many T/KO victories. Something that can't be said for anyone at 115lbs.



Cliffs:
- 135lbs > 115lbs
- JJ has fought poor competition, no one she has fought is a capable striker. She has fought one wrestler in her whole UFC career.

135 seemed shallower then it was, because zigano and bethe fights gave ronda a huge buffer in the visibility of the competitiveness of the division. claudia and joanna were way ahead of everyone else, and it took till late last year to really figure that out

cliffs and misinterpretations always exist in all weight-classes to this regard. but yeah, in prime rondowg era right after penne it seemed close at 115 and shallow at 135, and ronda lost and val gave a good fight so we assumed it was deep. then claudia made her way abck to the title, joanna won, then rose, tecia and waterson have all gone up and down trying to look like top 3 but never doing so, and karolina is the only other possible top 3 WSW and the fight with claudia will determine where these things tier off.

i also blame WBW fighter performance for this. with bethe and pennington improving, davis semi-retiring, zigano's physical decline etc. it was hard to give credit to new WBW fighter with the belief that it is bums, good bums and ronda. holly, and val were a tough sell as prospects and pena still is.

 

[Blond]

Your argument has some merit, but from my experience 135 has a larger proportion of garbage fights.

 

[curryjunkie]

If you don't think she's the fighter to beat at 145, or her and Anderson is the fight to have, then I assume you just dislike her.

she has made a career out of fighting much smaller, less experienced opponents, missing weight, juicing, suspect excuses for pulling out of weight targets and generally whining and bitching, in a division thinner than a runway model,so no i dont think she deserves to be up there with the likes of joanna, and megumi fuji

 

[kirsky]

No there are NOT more women than 115 than 125 at all and there are not even more women at 115 than 135.

https://www.tapology.com/rankings/groups/current

115: 306 fighters worldwide
125: 392
135: 317

Don't speak if you don't know what the hell you're talking about and ESPECIALLY don't make stupid assumptions based on what YOU hold as "common sense."

PS. 135 was the most established division (though not the "deepest" numbers wise) before Ronda ever became known.

I meant more women walks around 115- 125lbs weight ( 135lbs thats a lot for females my friend)... Division got like 2 years, 135 is older, in ufc 4 years ( before in strikeforce also).
Saying 135lbs is most established div, meant youstopped following it like a year ago or so ... Holm cyborg, germaine in 145 lbs now... so who stayed in 135lbs... retired ronda, kaufman + soccer moms... who zingano ? heh.

 

[dim_]

Cyborg is the better fighter, but don't discount size and youth, of which Anderson has both
The current 145 champ has nothing for either of them

Germaine would comfortably beat Megan as well.

Size and youth?

Shes the same size.

What benefit is youth exactly? What martial art is youth?

 

[BigMuffler]

I meant more women walks around 115- 125lbs weight ( 135lbs thats a lot for females my friend)

No, this is the erroneous "common sense" that I'm referring to. You've been brainwashed by media to think that 140-150 lbs is an abnormal weight for women (especially women who train grappling who tend to build up muscle), foolish. The average American woman is 160+ lbs, yeah that's out of shape but if they train seriously they're not going to only lose fat, they'll also gain muscle so 145 walking around is a more realistic weight than 115 (tiny).