Wilder vs Stiverne

[PUO3]

Your logic there is circular though. Stiverne has a good chin because Wilder didn't knock him out, and Wilder's shots would have knocked out others. In short, it only works if you accept that Wilder is definitely the puncher he's made out to be - which I don't. I can twist that around too though. Stiverne has never previously really shown that he can take shots from a devastating puncher and if Wilder was as powerful as his hype suggests, he'd have knocked him out - especially as Stiverne looked fatigued from the middle rounds onwards.

At your local mall, maybe.

Stiverne has shown a beard many times before. In his lone "finish" loss it was a terrible stoppage.

You act as if Povetkin, Fury etc are much better than him. They arent.

 

[The Batkilt]

Stiverne has shown a beard many times before. In his lone "finish" loss it was a terrible stoppage.

You act as if Povetkin, Fury etc are much better than him. They arent.

"Many times"? He hasn't. He hasn't fought big punchers "many times". He's fought Chris Arreola, who is a glorified clubfighter. He's struggled with an old Ray Austin, who was quite close on the cards - despite being docked a point in the fourth - before eventually stopping him. Stiverne hasn't shown he has a great chin or that he was an especially good fighter.

Note that I have not posted that Stiverne has a glass jaw - if he did, Wilder would have beaten him. My point is that it's circular to use Wilder's punches as evidence of Stiverne having a good jaw, when Stiverne has not faced off against big punchers in the past on any consistent basis. (Unless you're counting Arreola, and I've posted my thoughts on that gimmick many times before.) He's fought punchers of a certain level, just as Wilder has knocked out opponents of a certain level.

And I act as if Pulev, Povetkin and Fury are much better than Wilder? They are.

 

[farfan]

i'm glad that Wilder silenced the critics .

i hate this tradition of being overly skeptical of hard punching fighters and baselessly assuming that they don't possess certain skill sets just because they didn't get the chance to display them .

 

[schgo1]

Agree to disagree I guess. Those shots Wilder hit Stiverne with were bombs. And he did take Stiverne down, it's just that on his way to the canvas Stiverne decided to tackle Wilder and take him down with him.

Manny Steward said that the problem with taller fighters -6'4'' plus - is balance and coordination. With so much length they have trouble setting themselves when throwing punches, and they often aren't very fast. He said that's what made Lennox, Bowe, and the Klitscho's so exceptional.

For a tall guy who was continually being walked down by his opponent, Wilder didn't panic and showed patience. Stiverne thought he could walk through his shots but, got taken down once and over the course of the fight slowed down. You can't take those kind of shots and think you'll get better as the fight goes on.

 

[The Batkilt]

i'm glad that Wilder silenced the critics .

i hate this tradition of being overly skeptical of hard punching fighters and baselessly assuming that they don't possess certain skill sets just because they didn't get the chance to display them .

Wilder was denied any chances to display his skills by his promoters and handlers for years - thus why anyone would be sceptical of his supposed class. He's got a decent jab, and can knock out shot fighters and clubfighters who don't possess strong chins. He's been able to use his jab and put combinations together against a decent opponent in Stiverne. He's not as bad as some folk make out.

Conversely, he's not the black terminator that he's hyped up to be either, and he's at present another paper champion who hasn't fought the top guys in the division.

 

[PUO3]

"Many times"? He hasn't. He hasn't fought big punchers "many times". He's fought Chris Arreola, who is a glorified clubfighter. He's struggled with an old Ray Austin, who was quite close on the cards - despite being docked a point in the fourth - before eventually stopping him. Stiverne hasn't shown he has a great chin or that he was an especially good fighter.

Note that I have not posted that Stiverne has a glass jaw - if he did, Wilder would have beaten him. My point is that it's circular to use Wilder's punches as evidence of Stiverne having a good jaw, when Stiverne has not faced off against big punchers in the past on any consistent basis. (Unless you're counting Arreola, and I've posted my thoughts on that gimmick many times before.) He's fought punchers of a certain level, just as Wilder has knocked out opponents of a certain level.

And I act as if Pulev, Povetkin and Fury are much better than Wilder? They are.

I dont think chins are measured solely on who they have fought. These are grown ass giant men throwing bombs, when you never appear overly affected by them, not to mention welcome them with smiles, that is a pretty clear indicator, to me at least, that you have a solid chin.

Fury being much better than Wilder is laughable.

 

[schgo1]

"Many times"? He hasn't. He hasn't fought big punchers "many times". He's fought Chris Arreola, who is a glorified clubfighter. He's struggled with an old Ray Austin, who was quite close on the cards - despite being docked a point in the fourth - before eventually stopping him. Stiverne hasn't shown he has a great chin or that he was an especially good fighter.

Note that I have not posted that Stiverne has a glass jaw - if he did, Wilder would have beaten him. My point is that it's circular to use Wilder's punches as evidence of Stiverne having a good jaw, when Stiverne has not faced off against big punchers in the past on any consistent basis. (Unless you're counting Arreola, and I've posted my thoughts on that gimmick many times before.) He's fought punchers of a certain level, just as Wilder has knocked out opponents of a certain level.

And I act as if Pulev, Povetkin and Fury are much better than Wilder? They are.

Wilder takes Fury within 8 rounds. If Cunningham, who isn't much bigger or heavier than a Cruiserweight, can send Fury to the canvas, Fury isn't holding up against Wilder.

Only way Wilder loses against Fury is if he gets careless and decides not to use his jab and gets caught looking only for the knockout.

 

[PUO3]

Wilder beats Fury anyway he wants to.

And hes asking for it.

 

[farfan]

Fury is not a bad fighter .

probably the only Heavyweight out there who can fight inside .

 

[heavyarms21]

Pulev and Povetkin I buy as tough opponents , Fury , not so much

 

[The Batkilt]

Wilder takes Fury within 8 rounds. If Cunningham, who isn't much bigger or heavier than a Cruiserweight, can send Fury to the canvas, Fury isn't holding up against Wilder.

Only way Wilder loses against Fury is if he gets careless and decides not to use his jab and gets caught looking only for the knockout.

Wait. So the only way Wilder gets hurt against Fury is by being careless, but we ignore that the only reason Cunningham hurt Fury is because he was careless and ignored his trainer? Aye, alright then, mate.

Fury knocks Wilder out. He's shown constant improvement over the years, and was supposed to get caught again by that overhand right in the Chisora rematch; he didn't. He listens to his uncle in the corner, and that's his one glaring weakness as a fighter, getting caught with the overhand right. Wilder won't be throwing it from the same angle as Cunningham or Chisora, so it's hardly as simple as "well, Cunningham landed so Wilder does".

Wilder beats Fury anyway he wants to.

And hes asking for it.

Wilder's talked a lot before about what he wants. Fighters do that. He might actually genuinely believe that he's now the best in the world. But I can believe I'm the King of Denmark - it doesn't make it so. Wilder's handlers won't be looking at a Fury fight for at least a year. Whether he actually takes on fights that he can learn from is the question.

 

[schgo1]

Wait. So the only way Wilder gets hurt against Fury is by being careless, but we ignore that the only reason Cunningham hurt Fury is because he was careless and ignored his trainer? Aye, alright then, mate.

Fury knocks Wilder out. He's shown constant improvement over the years, and was supposed to get caught again by that overhand right in the Chisora rematch; he didn't. He listens to his uncle in the corner, and that's his one glaring weakness as a fighter, getting caught with the overhand right. Wilder won't be throwing it from the same angle as Cunningham or Chisora, so it's hardly as simple as "well, Cunningham landed so Wilder does".



Wilder's talked a lot before about what he wants. Fighters do that. He might actually genuinely believe that he's now the best in the world. But I can believe I'm the King of Denmark - it doesn't make it so. Wilder's handlers won't be looking at a Fury fight for at least a year. Whether he actually takes on fights that he can learn from is the question.

So let me get this straight...because Wilder is taller and stronger than both Cunningham and Chisora, this will result in Wilder being ineffective when he throws an overhand right against Fury? Fury must be a truly special boxer...He isn't.

Bottom line, I don't share your faith in Fury as a solid heavyweight. There are always reasons behind someone getting knocked down. Fury getting "careless" against a blown-up Cruiserweight like Cunningham is his own fault.

Wilder is stronger and faster than Fury, I would enjoy him trying to turn a fight against Wilder into a punchers brawl.

 

[The Batkilt]

So let me get this straight...because Wilder is taller and stronger than both Cunningham and Chisora, this will result in Wilder being ineffective when he throws an overhand right against Fury? Fury must be a truly special boxer...He isn't.

No. That's how you're choosing to infer it.

You can't ignore the circumstances of how Fury fought against Cunningham and how he's fought since but then play off like I'm the one making generalisations, by the by.

Bottom line, I don't share your faith in Fury as a solid heavyweight. There are always reasons behind someone getting knocked down. Fury getting "careless" against a blown-up Cruiserweight like Cunningham is his own fault.

That's fine. I don't share your faith that Wilder will ever be anything other than "decent at best".

Wilder is stronger and faster than Fury, I would enjoy him trying to turn a fight against Wilder into a punchers brawl.

Fury wouldn't do that though. Despite all his talk and the way he's portrayed, he's not a fucking idiot. He didn't go in all guns blazing in either Chisora fight, as he knew it played into Chisora's hands.

He's not fought the way you're describing in a long time, and the most famous examples were his fights after Chisora where he seemed to take his opponents lightly and paid for it. He's matured and improved since. (Or maybe it's because he's not being fighting club level fighters that he has no respect for. Maybe we'll find out next month.)

 

[schgo1]

No. That's how you're choosing to infer it.

You can't ignore the circumstances of how Fury fought against Cunningham and how he's fought since but then play off like I'm the one making generalisations, by the by.



That's fine. I don't share your faith that Wilder will ever be anything other than "decent at best".



Fury wouldn't do that though. Despite all his talk and the way he's portrayed, he's not a fucking idiot. He didn't go in all guns blazing in either Chisora fight, as he knew it played into Chisora's hands.

He's not fought the way you're describing in a long time, and the most famous examples were his fights after Chisora where he seemed to take his opponents lightly and paid for it. He's matured and improved since. (Or maybe it's because he's not being fighting club level fighters that he has no respect for. Maybe we'll find out next month.)

Well, it seems that both these fighters can and have done some maturing, because I expected Wilder to start swinging wildly the way he's done in the past. But he showed a solid jab throughout the fight and did not punch himself out against a dangerous opponent.

I hope Wilder/Fury happens this year. it would be great publicity for boxing. Hayman and NBC should seriously think about working to get this fight onto their new boxing series.

 

[The Batkilt]

Well, it seems that both these fighters can and have done some maturing, because I expected Wilder to start swinging wildly the way he's done in the past. But he showed a solid jab throughout the fight and did not punch himself out against a dangerous opponent.

I hope Wilder/Fury happens this year. it would be great publicity for boxing. Hayman and NBC should seriously think about working to get this fight onto their new boxing series.

He undoubtedly did show an improved maturity, and a patience at times. Stiverne did hurt him at one point and he didn't panic, which is something that Wladimir Klitschko only really begin to develop under Manny Steward, and arguably even then he didn't always react that well even when his chin held up.

I don't think Wilder is trash or anything. I've pointed out before that he did win a bronze medal at the Olympics with hardly any experience; the flip side is he didn't beat the best to win it. Bringing him along slowly as a professional to counter that lack of experience made sense; the lack of learning fights along the way didn't though. He's no doubt learned in the gym, but I still think he's got to take on other fighters to learn and improve, or falter; that's when we'll get the real measure of how high his ceiling is.

To me, I don't see him in the same bracket as Pulev, Fury or Povetkin at this point. And if I was Wilder's handlers I'd be looking at Fury in 2016 rather than 2015, and taking on some more learning fights against fringe world level opposition in the meantime. But that's the catch 22 with the multiple alphabet titles - you can win one before you're really ready for the best, and once you have one it's harder to justify fighting certain opponents.

 

[heavyarms21]

So what are good progression fights ? Maybe a match against Wach ?

 

[The Batkilt]

It's a difficult balance between finding the right opponent with the right promoter, really. The title makes that harder, to be honest. I'm not suggesting that Wilder should fight Mike Perez next, but let's use him as an example. He's a decent fighter, has been in against overall better opposition than Wilder. Can punch a bit - capable of devastating shots - but doesn't possess one punch kayo power at the top level. A decent fight to learn from, as Perez would push him over ten or twelve rounds, and would be looking to get inside Wilder's reach.

He's 0-1-1 in his last two; you can't give him a voluntarily title shot. And you can't take him on non-title, as if he wins then you've lost your 0 - and in these days it means more than when Duran lost a non-title fight - and you're sort of obligated to give him a title shot.

If Tony Thompson wasn't fighting against Solis again soon, I'd genuinely suggest him as someone to fight as a measuring stick of where Wilder is - but he is fighting Solis and again, isn't really someone you can justify defending against at this point.

 

[heavyarms21]

I get you the Politics of that belt invites criticism if he doesn't face the upper echelon

 

[PUO3]

Fury is not a bad fighter .

probably the only Heavyweight out there who can fight inside .

Didnt say he was. Said Wilder would beat him.

Wilder's talked a lot before about what he wants. Fighters do that. He might actually genuinely believe that he's now the best in the world. But I can believe I'm the King of Denmark - it doesn't make it so. Wilder's handlers won't be looking at a Fury fight for at least a year. Whether he actually takes on fights that he can learn from is the question.

Wilder was supposed to be scared of stepping up in competition too and was being protected, yet he was the one clamoring for Stiverne. The day after that fight hes asking for Fury and Wlad.

 

[The Batkilt]

Didnt say he was. Said Wilder would beat him.
Wilder was supposed to be scared of stepping up in competition too and was being protected, yet he was the one clamoring for Stiverne. The day after that fight hes asking for Fury and Wlad.

Well, I've never posted that he was scared. I don't believe many fighters are actually scared of others; it's just a word fans throw around. It's usually down to promoters and managers when fights are avoided. Fighters are, in general, a confident breed; they have to be in order to succeed.

But Wilder thinking he can beat Fury and WLAD and Wilder actually doing so are two entirely different things.