Why religious people should renounce their faith

LOL. You think it is the genetic fallacy because you don´t understand what you read. I never said that the source is unreliable and so the conclusion false, I said the means they use to get to their beliefs is unreliable, i.e., their epistemology is not reliable. I also said that their belief could be true, but that it cannot be determined by this failed epistemology.

For the 5th time and you still don´t get it.
You're simply saying it's me who's made the mistake when it's you. That's not an argument. If you want to have a debate, you'll need a better premise and the ability to advance your argument. You seemingly lack both.

As a child, one may be taught to believe in God, in Jesus. Then they find corroboration and reason and fact to support that belief as they mature. What's your reasoning for disagreeing? Just that you don't believe? That's not an argument.

You seem to be stuck saying that I don't understand. At what point would you drop that and clearly state your assertion, and try to advance your argument? If all you have is repeating "you don't get it," I don't have anything to discuss with you.
 
I'm not saying the evidence proves that it happened, I'm saying there is more evidence to support the claim for Christ than Alexander. If you're rejecting Christ as divine despite the evidence at hand, how much more should you reject Alexander as divine?

The Bible itself is evidence, especially given it's historicity. Not proof, but evidence.

Based on the evidence at hand I would reject the claim that Alexander is divine as well, I'm questioning why you would accept the divine claim of Jesus but not that of Alexander. After all they both:

- Were historical figures that sources claim to be divine
- Had numerous sources corroborating claims
- Had contemporary historians write about their deeds and claims

The empirical evidence for the historicity of Alexander is actually greater than it is for Jesus. The only major difference they had was that one of the sects of Jesus gained power and was able to influence the Emperor of Rome. If it was a cult of Alexander that gained power back then and joined all his writings into a bible would you believe Alexander was divine?
 
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You're simply saying it's me who's made the mistake when it's you. That's not an argument. If you want to have a debate, you'll need a better premise and the ability to advance your argument. You seemingly lack both.

As a child, one may be taught to believe in God, in Jesus. Then they find corroboration and reason and fact to support that belief as they mature. What's your reasoning for disagreeing? Just that you don't believe? That's not an argument.

You seem to be stuck saying that I don't understand. At what point would you drop that and clearly state your assertion, and try to advance your argument? If all you have is repeating "you don't get it," I don't have anything to discuss with you.

I already explained it 5 times to bro. It is not my problem, you are the one incapable of understanding. Ask dontsnitch or the others who understood it to explain it to you again for the 7th time. Maybe by the 10th time you will understand it.
 
I already explained it 5 times to bro. It is not my problem, you are the one incapable of understanding. Ask dontsnitch or the others who understood it to explain it to you again for the 7th time. Maybe by the 10th time you will understand it.
I think you fear actual debate. That occurs quite a bit in people who refer to others as "bro," in my experience.
 
Based on the evidence at hand I would reject the claim that Alexander is divine as well, I'm questioning why you would accept the divine claim of Jesus but not that of Alexander. After all they both:

- Were historical figures that sources claim to be divine
- Had numerous sources corroborating claims
- Had contemporary historians write about their deeds and claims

The empirical evidence for the historicity of Alexander is actually greater than it is for Jesus. The only major difference they had was that one of the sects of Jesus gained power and was able to influence the Emperor of Rome. If it was a cult of Alexander that gained power back then and joined all his writings into a bible would you believe Alexander was divine?

I'm not even saying I wouldn't accept that Alexander was divine under the right circumstances, it is just objectively less probable if we go by the evidence. 1. All figures who claim to be divine are not assigned the same probability- we examine their life. 2. Christ has more corroborating sources. 3. Christ has more contemporary historians write about this claim.

There is more evidence that Alexander existed, but it's not really argued whether or not Christ existed. Both meet the sufficient criteria for existence.
 
I'm not even saying I wouldn't accept that Alexander was divine under the right circumstances, it is just objectively less probable if we go by the evidence. 1. All figures who claim to be divine are not assigned the same probability- we examine their life. 2. Christ has more corroborating sources. 3. Christ has more contemporary historians write about this claim.

There is more evidence that Alexander existed, but it's not really argued whether or not Christ existed. Both meet the sufficient criteria for existence.

This is really interesting, it goes to show how 2 relatively sane (I use that word loosely) people can have far different requirements for evidence. I'm trying to think of what I would need to make me believe that a god lived in the past and I'm having a hard time. Since you already do, could you clarify on what evidence convinced you? For this argument let's leave revelation out of it, if you weren't a Christian what empirical evidence would you need to believe that a god lived in the past?
 
This is really interesting, it goes to show how 2 relatively sane (I use that word loosely) people can have far different requirements for evidence. I'm trying to think of what I would need to make me believe that a god lived in the past and I'm having a hard time. Since you already do, could you clarify on what evidence convinced you? For this argument let's leave revelation out of it, if you weren't a Christian what empirical evidence would you need to believe that a god lived in the past?

I think we've been having two different conversations. My point was not to say I know God exists, that I can prove Christ is God, or that I know Christ is God. My point was to say that there is more evidence pointing to Christ being divine than Alexander.

I think you are too quick to undermine the amount of evidence surrounding the life of Christ. The Bible is not one book, it's a collection of books and documents, including eyewitness testimony. There are more manuscripts for this than any other in history. There is evidence surrounding his resurrection. His followers believed it so much so that they all were killed for their beliefs. Pair this with my personal experiences and those of people I trust, I have formed a belief which I consider more than justified.
 
I'm not even saying I wouldn't accept that Alexander was divine under the right circumstances, it is just objectively less probable if we go by the evidence. 1. All figures who claim to be divine are not assigned the same probability- we examine their life. 2. Christ has more corroborating sources. 3. Christ has more contemporary historians write about this claim.

There is more evidence that Alexander existed, but it's not really argued whether or not Christ existed. Both meet the sufficient criteria for existence.

Assuming they both existed we still have to establish whether they are mere mortals or divine. I am sure you would agree that the usual purpose of stories about miracles is to establish the religious authority of the particular figure who performs them or is associated with them, right?

Consider these 5 reasons for why we should doubt these miracle stories:

1) These stories are not really well attested for. "None is attested by sufficient number of men, of such unquestioned good sense, education, and learning, as to secure us against all delusion in themselves; of such undoubted integrity, as to place them beyond all suspicion of any design to deceive others; of such credit and reputation in the eyes of mankind, as to have a great deal to lose in case of their being detected in any falsehood; and at the same time attesting facts, performed in such a public manner, and in so celebrated a part of the world, as to render the detection unavoidable: All which circumstances are requisite to give us a full assurance in the testimony of men" - Hume.

2) The human mind has a positive tendency to believe in what is strange, marvellous and wonderful.

3) Miracle stories " are observed chiefly to abound among ignorant and barbarous nations. Where they are believed by civilised people these will be found to have received from ignorant and barbarous ancestors". - Hume

4)There are many miracle stories from many religions and their claims contradict and undermine one another. Any one miracle report, to be true, would require the falsity of the others. This is like having 20 witnesses in a courtroom all each of whom was denounced as a liar by the other 19.

5) People have an intense desire to believe in are religious object. And in a religious context credulity is often thought meritorious and critical caution is felt to be sinful. So from a handful of believers in communication with others around them we will observe the belief reinforce itself and develop into total conviction, and the believers will see this as a virtuous spiral.

These 5 points are of unequal force but taken together provide grounds for a high degree of initial caution and scepticism about every miracle claim.

Now we can move on to the miracle claims considering the 5 points above and see whether there is reason for us to believe them.

There are 3 possible cases.

A) The unlikelihood of the testimony being false (the person is mistaken or dishonest) is less than the intrinsic unlikelihood of the miracle's having occurred. In this case we must reject the miracle report.

B) The unlikelihoods are equal. In this case we suspend judgement, which means we cannot rationally accept the report.

C) The occurrence of the miracle is intrinsically less unlikely than the testimony's being false. In this case we are rational to accept the miracle.

For C) to be the case (to rationally accept the miracle) the falsity of the testimony has to be the more miraculous than the event related to us, i.e., the testimony being false must be more unlikely than the miracle having occurred.

But this can never be the case because we have strong inductive evidence that nature follows a set order and has never produced events which surpass its productive capacity. And we also have reasons (points 1 to 5) that increase the likelihood of testimony being false; human nature being such that it deceiving or deceived is more likely than that the laws of nature, the regularity we see, has been suspended.

Credit to David Hume.
 
Assuming they both existed we still have to establish whether they are mere mortals or divine. I am sure you would agree that the usual purpose of stories about miracles is to establish the religious authority of the particular figure who performs them or is associated with them, right?

Consider these 5 reasons for why we should doubt these miracle stories:

1) These stories are not really well attested for. "None is attested by sufficient number of men, of such unquestioned good sense, education, and learning, as to secure us against all delusion in themselves; of such undoubted integrity, as to place them beyond all suspicion of any design to deceive others; of such credit and reputation in the eyes of mankind, as to have a great deal to lose in case of their being detected in any falsehood; and at the same time attesting facts, performed in such a public manner, and in so celebrated a part of the world, as to render the detection unavoidable: All which circumstances are requisite to give us a full assurance in the testimony of men" - Hume.

2) The human mind has a positive tendency to believe in what is strange, marvellous and wonderful.

3) Miracle stories " are observed chiefly to abound among ignorant and barbarous nations. Where they are believed by civilised people these will be found to have received from ignorant and barbarous ancestors". - Hume

4)There are many miracle stories from many religions and their claims contradict and undermine one another. Any one miracle report, to be true, would require the falsity of the others. This is like having 20 witnesses in a courtroom all each of whom was denounced as a liar by the other 19.

5) People have an intense desire to believe in are religious object. And in a religious context credulity is often thought meritorious and critical caution is felt to be sinful. So from a handful of believers in communication with others around them we will observe the belief reinforce itself and develop into total conviction, and the believers will see this as a virtuous spiral.

These 5 points are of unequal force but taken together provide grounds for a high degree of initial caution and scepticism about every miracle claim.

Now we can move on to the miracle claims considering the 5 points above and see whether there is reason for us to believe them.

There are 3 possible cases.

A) The unlikelihood of the testimony being false (the person is mistaken or dishonest) is less than the intrinsic unlikelihood of the miracle's having occurred. In this case we must reject the miracle report.

B) The unlikelihoods are equal. In this case we suspend judgement, which means we cannot rationally accept the report.

C) The occurrence of the miracle is intrinsically less unlikely than the testimony's being false. In this case we are rational to accept the miracle.

For C) to be the case (to rationally accept the miracle) the falsity of the testimony has to be the more miraculous than the event related to us, i.e., the testimony being false must be more unlikely than the miracle having occurred.

But this can never be the case because we have strong inductive evidence that nature follows a set order and has never produced events which surpass its productive capacity. And we also have reasons (points 1 to 5) that increase the likelihood of testimony being false; human nature being such that it deceiving or deceived is more likely than that the laws of nature, the regularity we see, has been suspended.

Credit to David Hume.

There are many reasons to doubt the supernatural claims of Christ, I don't disagree. It is probably why I wouldn't believe in Christ based on the Bible alone. It is impossible to know merely from the text, but it's also wrong to say the Bible is not evidence. I don't think I need to try to refute any of these points for this to be true.

Would you agree that there is more evidence of Christ being divine than other figures who have claimed divinity?
 
I think we've been having two different conversations. My point was not to say I know God exists, that I can prove Christ is God, or that I know Christ is God. My point was to say that there is more evidence pointing to Christ being divine than Alexander.

I understand that and I'm not looking for proof I'm looking for evidence that will convince beyond a reasonable doubt

I think you are too quick to undermine the amount of evidence surrounding the life of Christ. The Bible is not one book, it's a collection of books and documents, including eyewitness testimony. There are more manuscripts for this than any other in history. There is evidence surrounding his resurrection. His followers believed it so much so that they all were killed for their beliefs. Pair this with my personal experiences and those of people I trust, I have formed a belief which I consider more than justified.

Ok, here's what I was looking for and my thoughts on them.

1) The Bible is not one book, it's a collection of books and documents, including eyewitness testimony

Ok, a collection of books was bound together from an ancient bronze age society and an iron age Hellenized society


2) There are more manuscripts for this than any other in history

Ok I can accept that a man named Jesus lived in Galilee and preached and had a following


3) There is evidence surrounding his resurrection.

Here's where it starts to lose me.

- A resurrection is an extra-ordinary claim.
- The people of the day were extremely superstitious
- The people of the day did not have the scientific knowledge that we have today

Could there be a more reasonable explanation for these accounts that doesn't require any extra evidence?

4) His followers believed it so much so that they all were killed for their beliefs

I'm fine with the claim that his followers believed it so much that they died for it. At the same time the Carthaginians believed in Moloch so much that they sacrificed their children to his image. Strong belief does not make that belief true.


Now if you did not have your personal revelation, based on the evidence above, would you still believe that Jesus was a god?
 
I understand that and I'm not looking for proof I'm looking for evidence that will convince beyond a reasonable doubt



Ok, here's what I was looking for and my thoughts on them.

1) The Bible is not one book, it's a collection of books and documents, including eyewitness testimony

Ok, a collection of books was bound together from an ancient bronze age society and an iron age Hellenized society


2) There are more manuscripts for this than any other in history

Ok I can accept that a man named Jesus lived in Galilee and preached and had a following

Yep, no problems so far.

3) There is evidence surrounding his resurrection.

Here's where it starts to lose me.

- A resurrection is an extra-ordinary claim.
- The people of the day were extremely superstitious
- The people of the day did not have the scientific knowledge that we have today

Could there be a more reasonable explanation for these accounts that doesn't require any extra evidence?

Of course there are other alternatives, and of course this doesn't prove Christ is divine. It's evidence and nothing more. There is more evidence that Christ was resurrected than the fact that I went to space, even though my visit to space is more likely in a vacuum.

4) His followers believed it so much so that they all were killed for their beliefs

I'm fine with the claim that his followers believed it so much that they died for it. At the same time the Carthaginians believed in Moloch so much that they sacrificed their children to his image. Strong belief does not make that belief true.

Okay, so people believed in Moloch like they believed in Christ, though Christ walked among them and this proves that they directly believed his claims. That's more resounding evidence.

Now if you did not have your personal revelation, based on the evidence above, would you still believe that Jesus was a god?

Likely not.
 
There are many reasons to doubt the supernatural claims of Christ, I don't disagree. It is probably why I wouldn't believe in Christ based on the Bible alone. It is impossible to know merely from the text, but it's also wrong to say the Bible is not evidence. I don't think I need to try to refute any of these points for this to be true.

Would you agree that there is more evidence of Christ being divine than other figures who have claimed divinity?
To be honest with you, no, I do not believe that there is more evidence for Christ's divinity than for other figures. The reason being the intrinsic unlikelihood of miraculous events and the likelihood of informers being deceivers or deceived is always greater than the likelihood of a miracle having occurred.

There is also the issue of intellectual sympathy. Just like emotional sympathy where we share the feelings others feel, i.e., when one is happy, sad, excited, etc, we tend to sympathise and share in these feelings with them. Likewise when one is confident, or appears to be confident, in his belief being true we sympathise and accept the truth of his belief. Add this to the 5 points I mentioned and the likelihood that the testimony from the informer is false (is deceiving or is deceived) increases, and the chain of transmission formed, will just keep transmitting it and reinforcing the the 5 points I mention.

If it is wrong to say that the bible is not evidence of the divinity of Christ, is it also wrong to say the quran, vedas, bahai scripture and all scriptures of the world's religions are not evidence of the divinity of their respective figures?
 
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To be honest with you, no, I do not believe that there is more evidence for Christ's divinity than for other figures. The reason being the intrinsic unlikelihood of miraculous events and the likelihood of informers being deceivers or deceived is always greater than the likelihood of a miracle having occurred.

There is also the issue of intellectual sympathy. Just like emotional sympathy where we share the feelings others feel, i.e., when one is happy, sad, excited, etc, we tend to sympathise and share in these feelings with them. Likewise when one is confident, or appears to be confident, in his belief being true we sympathise and accept the truth of his belief. Add this to the 5 points I mentioned and the likelihood that the testimony from the informer is false (is deceiving or is deceived), and the chain of transmission formed, will just keep transmitting it and reinforcing the the 5 points I mention.

Let me phrase my question like this then: If you were to assign the probability of Christ's divinity on a scale of 1 to 100, what would it be? Since you claim you are agnostic about this, it can't be zero, even if it's 1 or 2 or even less.

Once you have that number, what is the probability that I am God? Or Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Koresh, Alexander, etc?
 
Let me phrase my question like this then: If you were to assign the probability of Christ's divinity on a scale of 1 to 100, what would it be? Since you claim you are agnostic about this, it can't be zero, even if it's 1 or 2 or even less.

Once you have that number, what is the probability that I am God? Or Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Koresh, Alexander, etc?
The probability of Christ's divinity depends on the probability of the witnesses being deceived or deceiving and on the intrinsic probability of Jesus being resurrected, walking on water, etc. The frequency with which events, strange and ordinary, occur due to natural causes is greater, far greater, than the frequency with which events happen due to supernatural causes. So I believe that the frequency is 0 for miracles whereas the probability that the testimony is false will always be greater than 0. I don't believe that the probability of a supernatural event can be higher than the probability of a natural event such as testimony being false. The values I give each probability doesn't really matter, what matters is that the probability of the supernatural cannot exceed that of the natural.

I can assigned the value 0 to the probability of miracles without claiming to know, nor does it entail that there is no god. All it implies is the rejection of a kind of event occuring. Since I reject all testimony of miracles I have no reason to believe that there ever has occurred a miracle.
 
Meauneau your thread is like autism.txt.

If you drop this idea of literalism (and the perceived incompatibility of dogma) you'll understand that religion has very important abstract and symbolic significance to human psychology, but you don't want to understand, you just want to win some past argument with your dad.
 
Of course there are other alternatives, and of course this doesn't prove Christ is divine. It's evidence and nothing more. There is more evidence that Christ was resurrected than the fact that I went to space, even though my visit to space is more likely in a vacuum.

You keep saying it's evidence which I agree but you don't specify if it's convincing evidence or not. Testimony from superstitious, bronze-iron aged people is simply not convincing evidence when it comes to supernatural claims.

The second part to your claim I disagree, there is more CONVINCING evidence that you went to space then Christ was resurrected and I would have an easier time believing it. When we look at claims like this we must break it up into 2 parts:

1) Does the act fall into the realm if what I view as possible

2) What is the probability of that person accomplishing that task

With your space claim you pass 1) right away because I know how the technology works and have witnessed people do it. You may pass 2) right away depending how well I knew you, if not I'd ask for more evidence

The Christ claims fails at 1) right away without extra evidence as it's something I do not view as currently possible.


Okay, so people believed in Moloch like they believed in Christ, though Christ walked among them and this proves that they directly believed his claims. That's more resounding evidence.

Well the Pharoh's walked among their people and they believed them to be divine and died for him, Alexander walked among his men and died for him and they believed him to be divine. That's resounding evidence as well.

Likely not.

Ok, so we established that given what we know of the world today and without any special revelation from god that the supernatural aspects of the bible are not believable.
 
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The probability of Christ's divinity depends on the probability of the witnesses being deceived or deceiving and on the intrinsic probability of Jesus being resurrected, walking on water, etc. The frequency with which events, strange and ordinary, occur due to natural causes is greater, far greater, than the frequency with which events happen due to supernatural causes. So I believe that the frequency is 0 for miracles whereas the probability that the testimony is false will always be greater than 0. I don't believe that the probability of a supernatural event can be higher than the probability of a natural event such as testimony being false. The values I give each probability doesn't really matter, what matters is that the probability of the supernatural cannot exceed that of the natural.

I can assigned the value 0 to the probability of miracles without claiming to know, nor does it entail that there is no god. All it implies is the rejection of a kind of event occuring. Since I reject all testimony of miracles I have no reason to believe that there ever has occurred a miracle.

Forget about miracles, what is the probability that Christ is God versus the others I mentioned?
 
Meauneau your thread is like autism.txt.

If you drop this idea of literalism (and the perceived incompatibility of dogma) you'll understand that religion has very important abstract and symbolic significance to human psychology, but you don't want to understand, you just want to win some past argument with your dad.
Story bro cool, it again tell please.

Why are you so mad bro?
 
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