Why is Sherdog okay with tapping to submissions but not tapping to strikes?

Cause it’s a submission

It’s suppose to make you submit/quit

the sub is locked in, you’re stuck n there’s no way of escaping

So it’s either tap, snap or nap

Tapping to strikes means you just don’t like getting hit in the face n you don’t show the will to overcome adversity (very important characteristic for a fighter)

Now I know there’s gonna be idiots coming here like zombies with: cte... cte...

Well you’re getting into a profession where getting hit to the head happens a lot

If you’re concerned with cte, maybe you’re in wrong profession n should reconsider your career choice
This is retarded as a fighter that's your livelyhood why throw tour career and years off your life so you can impress some dumb just bleed idiot in his moms basement.

when your opponent has full mount and you're too concussed to even defend yourself at all how are you going to escape?

If you're caught in an armbar or triangle choke are you a pussy for not trying to slam the other guy? Theres always a slight chance that you can slip your way out of a hold its happened before.
 
You know you can be choked out many times without any affects, long term or short term at all? Your logic applies even more strongly to chokes than to strikes.

The only reason there's an understanding that it's okay to tap to chokes and locks is because at one point people decided it was okay. In the early days of judo it was considered shameful to tap to chokes or arm bars (or even knee-locks, which were part of judo until 1925). Somewhere along the way they decided that as nice as it was to be tough, the damage wasn't worth it, so tapping for locks became okay. And then chokes.

With strikes it was thought until recently that there was no damage. Not just in boxing and MMA. When I was a kid, in school league hockey a player would be knocked out from a body check against the boards, and be back on the ice on the next shift, because if you could get up you were obviously completely okay again. Everyone thought like you did, because no one took concussions seriously. Just like no one took broken arms or being choked out seriously in old time judo. Strikes are in the same situation locks and chokes were in early judo - you were expected to put up with them, because being choked out or having a broken arm was just part of life, and tough guys put up with them.

Except now it looks like concussions are more dangerous than broken limbs or being choked out and revived.(yeah, I know you don't believe it, but don't take my word for it, ask any doctor). But we're going in circles; we don't agree on what is the most dangerous, so we're never going to convince each other. I'll leave you the last word, but if you get a second, do a search on concussions; you're going to find you're wrong about the dangers in it as opposed to chokes and locks.

Don’t think anybody’s arguing that chokes/broken limbs are worse than concussions, you’re changing the argument now

We’re talking about why tapping to strikes is not as accepted as tapping to subs
 
<mma4>
"If you tap to strikes, you're a little bitch!"
 
This is retarded as a fighter that's your livelyhood why throw tour career and years off your life so you can impress some dumb just bleed idiot in his moms basement.

when your opponent has full mount and you're too concussed to even defend yourself at all how are you going to escape?

If you're caught in an armbar or triangle choke are you a pussy for not trying to slam the other guy? Theres always a slight chance that you can slip your way out of a hold its happened before.

Yup cause every fighter should be rational during a fight n drop on the floor n tap as soon as he gets hit a bit hard...

It’s also how the sport/training is

You train to tap when the sub is in

You don’t train to punch to strikes. You train to overcome being stunted/rocked
 
Yup cause every fighter should be rational during a fight n drop on the floor n tap as soon as he gets hit a bit hard...

It’s also how the sport/training is

You train to tap when the sub is in

You don’t train to punch to strikes. You train to overcome being stunted/rocked
Don't put words in my mouth i never said to tap as soon as you're hurt, I said that tapping when you feel that you have no chance and you're taking uneccesary damage is fine.
 
For me personally, I just think it has no real life correlation. You can't be getting your ass handed to you in a street fight and be like "yup, I've had enough" and tap so they'll stop hitting you. A submission is different because it can lead to disfigurement and no one wants that. In the end though it's the fighters choice, it's their body, their career and therefore ultimately their decision.
In a street fight you can’t tap to get out of a choke. You’d actually have a decent chance of dying.

So neither example fits the real world.
 
Are you remembering the GSP fight correct?
matt-serra_georges-st-pierre.gif

Serra is sitting on GSPs chest, full mount, raining down blows while GSP is half concussed. The only thing that happens if GSP doesn’t tap is he becomes unconscious.
Pull him in, try scoot out the back door, give your back, try bucking him off etc etc. Options are still there he just chose not to do any of them in favor of tapping.
 
In a street fight you can’t tap to get out of a choke. You’d actually have a decent chance of dying.

So neither example fits the real world.
You misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying it doesn't matter if you tap or not in a street fight, whether you get your limb broken or get put to sleep is really at your opponents discretion. In MMA there is sportsmanship so a tap will lead to a quick release and hopefully no damage. Tapping to strikes in a street fight will just get you hurt worse.
 
And a continual beating wont cause disfigurement? You didnt write this correctly.
For fucks sake, they have rules, regulations, referees and corner-men to help protect you. Tapping to strikes because you're rocked is some bullshit no matter which way you spin it. If it's a strike that breaks a bone, yeah tap, but if it's just because you're getting your ass kicked it's going to get stopped anyway, try and fight through it, improve position, attempt a submission or try and neutralize them.
 
You have a non-zero chance of improving your position when you're blacking out to strikes - but mainly that depends upon your opponent screwing up badly. The same is true for not tapping with a submission locked in - you can improve your position if your opponent screws up. There are judoka who never tap to chokes and armbars in the Olympics for that reason - the Olympics come once every four years, its worth risking a broken limb on the chance your opponent screws up. Nog took the same approach with Mir.

Strikes or submissions, the way out when you're all but finished is to hope your opponent screws up.

But the consequences if your opponent doesn't screw up are far worse with strikes than with locks, let alone jokes. The one you're out of action for as you say 8-12 months. The other you have concussion symptoms (read up on them wrt NFL players if you're curious) that last the rest of your life. Its not even close.
Bullshit. People win fights blacked out all the time, I've done it in my younger days. Personally, I would rather get pounded out than have say Palhares contort my leg and snap all my ligaments, tapping to that is common sense, the only alternative is a permanent limp. I'm fully aware of CTE in the NFL, it happens in every contact sport, even pseudo-sports like professional wrestling has multiple cases of it. Should we just ban them all? Or explain the rules to the participants and have them sign a waiver? The whole thing would be avoided if we had highly competent referees and fighters who had a bit more trust in them.
 
Don't put words in my mouth i never said to tap as soon as you're hurt, I said that tapping when you feel that you have no chance and you're taking uneccesary damage is fine.

But you’re trying to say that

Tapping to strikes = tapping to subs

Or even

Tapping to strikes makes more sense than tapping to subs

Which makes no sense
 
For fucks sake, they have rules, regulations, referees and corner-men to help protect you. Tapping to strikes because you're rocked is some bullshit no matter which way you spin it. If it's a strike that breaks a bone, yeah tap, but if it's just because you're getting your ass kicked it's going to get stopped anyway, try and fight through it, improve position, attempt a submission or try and neutralize them.
You're so fucken tough bro. When is your UFC debut?
 
You can't really improve your position when a submission is locked in , so tapping is just acknowledging that your opponent got the better of you. If you don't tap in that situation and your arm is broken ala Mir/Big Nog, Mir/Sylvia, Saku/Renzo etc then it's just a sign of poor sportsmanship on your part and you're probably deserving of a broken limb. Tapping to strikes differs though, if you're trapped in a crucifix I can understand or in a similar predicament to Barnett when he lost his vision and didn't want to be punted full force by Cro cop but tapping the way GSP did to Serra was just an easy out for a guy that severely underestimated his opponent. That kind of tapping to strikes I strongly disagree with, kudos to you if that's how you want to go out but I don't agree with it.
Well like I said, you seem to highly underestimate what it's like to be in that position if you think it's that simple. We've seen people caught in submissions that many would've tapped to and gut them out to escape; why can't the same be true for striking situations? We've likewise seen people escape crucifixes it didn't look like they'd escape and fighters continue fighting despite a loss of vision. If your limb is in trouble it can be fixed and you're generally of sound mind unless you were badly rocked prior; when you're getting pummeled relentlessly it's not as simple as "just do something to improve your position." I don't think you realize that in many cases if you're hurt badly enough you might as well have a loss of vision, cardio, strategy, and be unable to improve your position. A tap in any situation is an acknowledgement that you have nothing left, and just because you don't have someone yanking at a limb or trapping you in a crucifix, or you didn't lose your vision doesn't mean you still have anything left to give.

I also find it funny that you seem to find a broken limb or some torn ligaments so much worse than something like CTE, a broken orbital, or the potential for a serious eye injury. Submissions are the only attacks that can disfigure and have grave consequences. Nobody's getting brain damage from showing how long they can be trapped in an armbar without tapping.
 
Don’t think anybody’s arguing that chokes/broken limbs are worse than concussions, you’re changing the argument now

We’re talking about why tapping to strikes is not as accepted as tapping to subs

The argument has always been (well, as long as I've been alive, and that's many decades) that giving up due to head blows is different because its not harmful, that you're okay if you can get back on your feet. Starting to black out from being taken into the boards (no one wore helmets back then); skate it off. If you fall over because you're blacking out, get back on your feet, because your opponents might score. Same for boxing, for football - being hit in the head was like stubbing your toe, you keep going.

Its pretty straightforward. There are two conditions that make tapping acceptable:

1) You're taking damage.
2) You've no reasonable way of mitigating it.

If you're not taking damage then you keep going. Being held down for instance is not a reason to tap.

If you can reasonably be expected to escape then you keep going.


So now lets look at someone losing consciousness from head strikes. They've clearly got no reasonable way of escaping, anymore than they do with a choke or lock. Anyone who's started to black out (my experience was from a car accident) will tell you that, its a very different feeling than being rocked. Being rocked means you're dizzy, but know what's going out. Losing consciousness from strikes is like passing out from chokes (I speak from experience on this, having had both). Dizziness doesn't even come into it, your brain is shutting down and you've no idea what's going on, barely have use of your limbs, don't know where you are - well, you get the idea.

So if tapping to strikes is not allowed, its not because of 2), so it must be 1), that people think you're not taking damage, at least compared to chokes and locks. And that was exactly what we were taught in hockey, rugby, football and similar contact sports back in the day - that being hit in the head might hurt, but its was just pain, there were no long term consequences. Turns out that was wrong.
 
Bullshit. People win fights blacked out all the time, I've done it in my younger days. Personally, I would rather get pounded out than have say Palhares contort my leg and snap all my ligaments, tapping to that is common sense, the only alternative is a permanent limp. I'm fully aware of CTE in the NFL, it happens in every contact sport, even pseudo-sports like professional wrestling has multiple cases of it. Should we just ban them all? Or explain the rules to the participants and have them sign a waiver? The whole thing would be avoided if we had highly competent referees and fighters who had a bit more trust in them.

You've won fights when you were unconscious? I'm impressed.

I certainly don't want to ban sports that give head contact. I just think its silly to say its okay to tap to chokes and locks but not okay to tap to strikes. When I was younger people thought there were no consequences to being knocked unconscious, or nearly unconscious - you picked yourself off the ice or field (it was expected even of six year olds) and got right back in there, because the headache was just that, a minor pain you put up with.

So that's why boxers, hockey players, football players and the like never quit despite going unconscious - we were told it was no big deal going out. Now we know better, and it makes no more sense not to tap when you're going unconscious from strikes than it does not to tap when you're going unconscious from a choke, or because you feel your ligaments and tendons stretching.

In theory the ref should stop all of these - if the ref thinks someone is passing out from strikes or a choke, or an armlock has gone too far, they're supposed to stop it. In practice ref's don't know if someone is going out or if their arm is breaking until after it happens. So you take your destiny into your own hands and tap when consciousness leaves - if nothing else it saves you the punches that hit your unconscious head while the ref is deciding if you're out or not.
 
You're so fucken tough bro. When is your UFC debut?
Why do you think Kiwis do better than Australians at this shit? It's because we don't have an attitude where tapping to strikes is acceptable. Even "your" best fighters are normally born here or have some sort of kiwi lineage. Sure there's John Wayne Parr, Stan Longinidis and a few others but you compare that to the way say Hunt, Sefo, Tua, Jordan Tai, Jason Suttie etc fight and you'll begin to understand what I mean. We have an underdog mentality in this country and that means not giving up when the going gets tough. You can find it okay to tap to strikes if you want but I don't, except the instances which I've mentioned in previous posts.
 
Well like I said, you seem to highly underestimate what it's like to be in that position if you think it's that simple. We've seen people caught in submissions that many would've tapped to and gut them out to escape; why can't the same be true for striking situations? We've likewise seen people escape crucifixes it didn't look like they'd escape and fighters continue fighting despite a loss of vision. If your limb is in trouble it can be fixed and you're generally of sound mind unless you were badly rocked prior; when you're getting pummeled relentlessly it's not as simple as "just do something to improve your position." I don't think you realize that in many cases if you're hurt badly enough you might as well have a loss of vision, cardio, strategy, and be unable to improve your position. A tap in any situation is an acknowledgement that you have nothing left, and just because you don't have someone yanking at a limb or trapping you in a crucifix, or you didn't lose your vision doesn't mean you still have anything left to give.

I also find it funny that you seem to find a broken limb or some torn ligaments so much worse than something like CTE, a broken orbital, or the potential for a serious eye injury. Submissions are the only attacks that can disfigure and have grave consequences. Nobody's getting brain damage from showing how long they can be trapped in an armbar without tapping.
I find it funny that you'd jump straight to CTE for a concussion, the equivalent would be me jumping straight to paralysis or maiming for a submission. How many cases of CTE have been caused by one late ground and pound stoppage? Using hyperbole isn't really adding anything to your argument. Yes we've seen people escape crucifixes which is why I said after you've tried to escape but can't and are just sustaining damage that you have no way of preventing. I also said if the strikes had caused a break (an orbital bone would be included here) and you can't intelligently defend yourself you should tap. I think the posters responding to me know EXACTLY the situations I'm talking about but are simply being pedantic now. If a fight started and fighter A gave fighter B a solid cross that didn't drop him or break anything and fighter B tapped out because "he couldn't see himself winning from there" would you be okay with it? This is the hurt business and these guys train to see who the baddest dude on the planet at that weight is, part of that is having a fighter's mentality, I just don't see tapping in the situations I mentioned as having a fighter's mentality.
 
Because Sherdog is full of idiots.
 
You've won fights when you were unconscious? I'm impressed.

I certainly don't want to ban sports that give head contact. I just think its silly to say its okay to tap to chokes and locks but not okay to tap to strikes. When I was younger people thought there were no consequences to being knocked unconscious, or nearly unconscious - you picked yourself off the ice or field (it was expected even of six year olds) and got right back in there, because the headache was just that, a minor pain you put up with.

So that's why boxers, hockey players, football players and the like never quit despite going unconscious - we were told it was no big deal going out. Now we know better, and it makes no more sense not to tap when you're going unconscious from strikes than it does not to tap when you're going unconscious from a choke, or because you feel your ligaments and tendons stretching.

In theory the ref should stop all of these - if the ref thinks someone is passing out from strikes or a choke, or an armlock has gone too far, they're supposed to stop it. In practice ref's don't know if someone is going out or if their arm is breaking until after it happens. So you take your destiny into your own hands and tap when consciousness leaves - if nothing else it saves you the punches that hit your unconscious head while the ref is deciding if you're out or not.
Blacked out and unconscious are not synonymous and you shouldn't be impressed I was just a young, angry man with no outlet for my frustrations. I explained why I think tapping to submissions isn't problematic for me, the argument is becoming circular in nature. I don't think the ref worries about fighters passing out from chokes because they're fairly harmless. As far as joint locks are concerned an acknowledgement you've "been caught" by tapping is far more sporting than letting your limb get broken because of a sense of bravado or whatever. We also agree on the refs not knowing when your limb is going to break, hence why it's far easier for you to tap yourself and take the decision out of their hands.
 
Why do you think Kiwis do better than Australians at this shit? It's because we don't have an attitude where tapping to strikes is acceptable. Even "your" best fighters are normally born here or have some sort of kiwi lineage. Sure there's John Wayne Parr, Stan Longinidis and a few others but you compare that to the way say Hunt, Sefo, Tua, Jordan Tai, Jason Suttie etc fight and you'll begin to understand what I mean. We have an underdog mentality in this country and that means not giving up when the going gets tough. You can find it okay to tap to strikes if you want but I don't, except the instances which I've mentioned in previous posts.
<DisgustingHHH>
 
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