Why is Muay Thai so popular in MMA?

It's a combat oriented sport that is just plain effective. It was used in times of war in Thailand when you dropped your weapon.
 
While I agree with some of what you say, please don't DO NOT over-estimate the power of what an average TKD kick does.

Even an above average kick.
An average boxing punch is also rather weak, because most punches thrown are jabs. If a boxer throws a power punch, it is powerful. If a TKD guy throws a power kick, it is powerful.

TKD suffers from McDojoism, especially in the US, but that doesn't mean that no TKD guy can kick or that properly executed TKD kicks cannot be powerful. I even provided videos.

First off. For Olympic TKD? No points are given for punches. Unless you go to the body and KO someone with a body punch. This is why Olympic Level TKD'ers hold their hands down to their sides. Because they know they don't have to keep their hands up.
But nobody is discussing Olympic TKD here. I simply addressed some of the claims you made. And points ARE given for punches, read the rules again.

If someone wanted to enter MMA competition, TKD is not the first thing I'd recommend. But that doesn't mean that TKD will give you cancer and make you a shitty fighter either. We should be able to stick to facts, right?

Second off. You're right. There are some Goddamn great MMA guys who love to acknowledge their TKD base. Unfortunately, name one time they attribute their TKD prowess to an MMA win!
David Loiseau, after knocking out McCarthy, in his post-fight interview in the cage with Rogan. Go watch it.

Third..... The kicking TKD teaches isn't power kicking.
TKD doesn't teach ONLY power kicking. It teaches different kinds of kicks, and some of them are power kicks.

Anyone who has ever seen a breaking competition wouldn't have such a hard time understanding this. How the fuck would that work if TKD didn't "teach power kicking"?

That's part of your black belt exam. To understand that concept in that order. Speed first, accuracy second, power last!
That is not a part of a Kukkiwon black belt exam. A Kukkiwon black belt exam consists of Taeguek 8, some sparring and a break, everything else is optional.

Look, I respect your experience and that you have based your opinion on your training, but you've really picked the wrong person to educate about TKD.

And, speaking of it, the sequence is technique, power, speed. Technique is drilled at 1st dan (Koryo poomsae), power at 2nd dan (Keumgang poomsae) and speed at 3rd (Taebaek poomsae). That's why Koryo has difficult kick and strike combos which have to be done cleanly or they look crap. That's why Keumgang is a very heavy form with many horse stances and powerful movements. And that's why Taebek is a quick, fast-flowing form.

Anyway, didn't you just contradict yourself by admitting that you had to consider power, among other things, at your black belt exam?

Anyone who Bullshits you other wise? Isnt a Traditionally trained TKD practitioner or even non traditionally trained.
Please, dude, I've trained longer than you with better guys.

You never answered. Did you really learn from Grandmaster Rhee himself, or did you only meet at your belt tests? Cause Grandmaster Rhee lived in Washington for most of his time spent in the US, before he moved back to Korea. And you live in California.

As I said, no disrespect towards Grandmaster Rhee, who is awesome in every way, but if you learned from him, then I learned from General Choi.
 
Did you watch the first UFC's at all?

natural selection

Kinda what I was going to say.

I agree. I always laugh when people bring up "the first UFCs". Like it was some tournament that proved what martial arts worked. With no exception.
It was a long time agp, but I very distinctly recall UFC 1 (at least) being marketed to some extent as being the "Okay....let's see once and for all what *REALLY* works!"

Unless I am similarly mistaken, the first UFC and at least the first one and the few that followed, were directly organized by the Gracie family. They went through some discussion over who would fight to represent the Gracies (choosing Royce, who was young, physically unimposing, and could showcase the styles' subtleties to the audience). Plus, having "all-comers" matches to prove that BJJ is da proverbial bomb has been the M.O. of the Gracies for decades.

Funny thing: the TKD, who I think got heel-hooked by Frank Shamrock in no time flat, came out of his corner in a Muay Thai stance, causing me and my instructor (TKD guys) to exclaim "What the...?"

Well if that is the case then all standup MA's suck then. Because The boxing guys and Kickboxing guys got destroyed by the grapplers just as bad as the Karate and TKD guys. I mean if your a standup fighter, it doesn't matter what style, and you dont know anything about grappling, then most likely your gonna lose to a grappler. That's pretty much a given. For some reason this doesn't apply to TMA guys though. IF they lose, then the art they practice just sucks. :rolleyes:

I didn't think the Gracies were ever out to prove everyone else sucks, just that they're method was better.

Anyway, the first couple UFCs were not "MMA" fights; I'm not sure when "mixed martial arts" crept into the lexicon, but it wasn't until later. Once the Gracies started out making UFC a race for second, strikers started blending in grappling (at least enough to keep from getting taken down and tooled on the mat with ease) and turning it into the sport we see today.

That said: considering how people constantly point to the primacy of Muay Thai, BJJ, and boxing in crucible of UFC fighting (the UFC, being "the real deal," where true effectiveness gets measured or debunked) as the reason why "we all *KNOW*" they're better, I'm not sure how you came to your original assessment.
 
Yeah in Fact Harold Howard was Karate and he beat a MT guy. In UFC 3 i think.
UFC 3 is generally a fantastic event.

Harold Howard, a Karate guy knocks out Payne, a Muay Thai guy.
Kimo, a TKD black belt loses to Royce, but beats him to a bloody pulp in the process, so Royce has to surrender against Harold, the Karate guy.
Keith Hackney defeats a mountain of a guy in Yarborough with Kempo.
And then Howard, the Karate guy is beaten by a NINJA.

This is obvious explanation why Muay Thai is used in MMA.

Really, I don't think Acraven watched the early UFCs. They were a circus.
 
McDojoism was rampant until the UFC days and arts like TKD and Karate suffered its impact more because of its popularity. It is tougher for that sentiment to flourish in a competitive environment where your skills are being put to the test constantly. That is why arts like MT, boxing and wrestling have held up well....

To put it another way, if there was no professional boxing and only olympic boxing rules, just imagine what boxing would be like today.

Having said that, I can see McDojoism creaping into MT and BJJ already...
 
TKD kicks (I'm a 2nd Dan under Jhoon Rhee), are not kicks that really damage in a "Kickboxing" or "MMA" fight. They're stinging snappy kicks.

Not to say there arent some really good TKD guys out there. But, the style just doesent fit the clinch fighting and sweeps that are likely to occur in MMA as some posters here have said.

Put another way. If an MMA fighter (as many do have a TKD background), use their "Tornado Kicking and jump spinning kicks" that are a staple of TKD?

That guy is gonna get SLAMMED HARD AS HELL!

Even if those squirrly spinny flashy kicks land? They're not gonna take someone out. never have and never will.

Except in Olympic TKD where everyone keeps their hands down.

For the record. I'd like to someday see a UFC or MMA champion somewhere, once he finishes a guy, to pull some crazy TKD style kick like a tornado kick to finish him off.

I've got no small amount of respect for Jhoon Rhee.

I lived in the DC area for about 20 years. I remember when Jhoon Rhee started really taking off with the idea of MA schools as a chain business is big way; his famous "Nobody bothers me!" commercials were all over local TV in the early '80s, and culd not be avoided if you lived in DC, northern VA, or southern MD. My dad started at one of his schools before training in Korea.

I've personally met Master Rhee a couple of times at a coupe TKD-related functions hosted at my old dojang, and there was no doubt judging by the reaction of the other highly-respected, world-famous Korean masters in attendance who "The Man" was when Jhoon Rhee walked into a room. He was a personal friend and training partner of Bruce Lee, and it is well-known that the respect between the two men as fighters was genuine and mutual.

Alas, I think he's contributed a lot to creating what we now know as "McDojo-ism." I think his intent was good, but he made TKD as much as fitness and self-esteem and personal growth (re: his well-known, and wildly popular, belt progression requirement for kids that they bring in a report card and prove their grades were better than at their prior promotion) as fighting. And as a guy who did a lot to promote "point stop" sparring (he was one of the first to market his own line of boots and gloves for that sort of fighting) I think he motivated folks to develop the "fast, snappy, low-power" kicks people equate with TKD.

As far as the whole "TKD kicks ain't got to stinkin' power" wisdom so much in evidence: you can't prove it by me. I trained under a guy who made his bones under Korean fresh off the boat in the early '80s. Those guys meant business when they fought, and people got knocked on their ass (or just plain KTFO) in training and certainly in competition. The "hands down/flurry kicking" paradigm is a sport adaptation as found in other forms of competition.
 
I didn't think the Gracies were ever out to prove everyone else sucks, just that they're method was better.

Anyway, the first couple UFCs were not "MMA" fights; I'm not sure when "mixed martial arts" crept into the lexicon, but it wasn't until later. Once the Gracies started out making UFC a race for second, strikers started blending in grappling (at least enough to keep from getting taken down and tooled on the mat with ease) and turning it into the sport we see today.

That said: considering how people constantly point to the primacy of Muay Thai, BJJ, and boxing in crucible of UFC fighting (the UFC, being "the real deal," where true effectiveness gets measured or debunked) as the reason why "we all *KNOW*" they're better, I'm not sure how you came to your original assessment.

I don't think you got my point. What I'm saying is, all that the first UFC's proved was that a striker, who can't stay on his feet, or can't survive on the ground is gonna get beat by a grappler. Somebody commented in this thread ,that "Karate, TKD, ect... all suck, they don't work in a real fight" "havn't you watched the first UFCs?". I see this posted all the time. IMO that doesn't make sense.

All those disciplines are striking styles. Karate (kyokushin, Shotokan ect..) TKD.. there all striking contests. They don't involve grappling. So ofcourse they have no defence to it. In the first UFC, when they faced a grappler, they got taken down and destroyed. That doesn't say anything about there effectiveness. Royce fought some Kyokushin Karete bb (can't remember his name) but anyway, the Karateka got taken down right off the bat and choked out. Now I fail to see how that means his style doesn't work. He never got the chance to use it. Now if Royce had of stood with him, he would have got his head knocked off.

Like for example when Hunt get's taken down and sub'd by Barnett with ease. We don't say "Muay Thai sucks, it's not effective" we say his TD defence and groundgame sucks. Why are the traditional arts not judged the same way? My whole point is. A MA's merit should be judged on what it focuses on. Not on what it doesnt focus on. If the Karateka would have got knocked out easily by a MT guy, then you could say that. Because it's comparing two striking styles. We don't say Boxing or Muay Thai is ineffective because they would get tooled by grapplers. We say they need to learn to grapple. I hope you get what I mean. It's hard to put it into words sometimes over the net. :D
 
Alas, I think he's contributed a lot to creating what we now know as "McDojo-ism." I think his intent was good, but he made TKD as much as fitness and self-esteem and personal growth (re: his well-known, and wildly popular, belt progression requirement for kids that they bring in a report card and prove their grades were better than at their prior promotion) as fighting. And as a guy who did a lot to promote "point stop" sparring (he was one of the first to market his own line of boots and gloves for that sort of fighting) I think he motivated folks to develop the "fast, snappy, low-power" kicks people equate with TKD.

Not to hijack this thread...

But I think people forget what the reputation of things like karate were in the 70s. It had a very poor reputation, in many ways. People thought of it as a place that attracted thugs and such (not unlike what people thought about MMA). There definitely some truth to it. Plenty of guys getting into street fights and doing rather well for them. Then there were the strange rituals...guys like Benny the Jet had to take a kick to the stomach from every senior member of the class to get their black belt. This is not unlike the whole BJJ whipping guys with belts.

The whole grades thing, becoming a better person, etc was an active marketing campaign to attract the general public (and most especially their kids) to martial arts. Guys like Gregster and I are old enough to remember when there was this weird inbetween stage. You'd have the 'hardcore' adults who had to deal with this influx of kids (like me :) ). And we'd overhear stories about their barfights, running from the cops, etc, etc. Your parents would quickly escort you out of the school while casting a wary glance at these 20 somethings obviously thinking, "Maybe this place isn't so good for my kids..."

Eventually, however, that more hardcore element dropped out (as they aged, got frustrated, etc).

It is true that TMAs attract a much more 'tame' audience now. But that is sort of the progression of an art/school as the general population ages.
 
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