Why I am now Libertarian (New Alternative Political Ideology)

[STEVEN SEAGOLD]

Nah, I'm very comfortable arguing about how broken libertarianism is and we can discuss it if you want. And there is nothing about Democratic socialism that says you don't have to work, so if we are going to discuss this stuff make an effort to be accurate.

The education isn't actually free, dude.

 

[Slippery Kantus]

Being a Libertarian is like being a force user in Star Wars

 

[kpt018]

The education isn't actually free, dude.

Who said it was, man.

 

[lecter]

Nah, I'm very comfortable arguing about how broken libertarianism is and we can discuss it if you want. And there is nothing about Democratic socialism that says you don't have to work, so if we are going to discuss this stuff make an effort to be accurate.

Democratic socialism favors a strong welfare state and a lot of Democratic socialists argue for 'free education as a right'.
To simplify and exaggerate this to 'I don't want to work and I hope I get everything for free' isn't less or more accurate than saying 'libertarians just are college students who hate the government'.

And sure we can discuss it, why not there http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/war-room-debate-league-sign-up-now-coming-soon.3449289/
?

 

[kpt018]

Democratic socialism favors a strong welfare state and a lot of Democratic socialists argue for 'free education as a right'.
To simplify and exaggerate this to 'I don't want to work and I hope I get everything for free' isn't less or more accurate than saying 'libertarians just are college students who hate the government'.

And sure we can discuss it, why not there http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/war-room-debate-league-sign-up-now-coming-soon.3449289/
?

I'm not sure how that thread works, but I'm happy to discuss it. But I am not a democratic socialist, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. What would we debating? Seems like you changed the subject.

Anyway, your characterization of a welfare state is utter nonsense. Democratic Socialists want a stronger safety net for those who are casualties of the economy (recession, lack of jobs, bad luck, etc.). And they want "free education" because they recognize an educated population is a more productive one and that education is one of the keys to solving poverty problems in tough areas of the country. It seems like your complaints contradict themselves, "free" education makes better workers.

And you're right about your last point. Libertarians also include ignorant adults and ultra-wealthy business owners who don't want to pay tax and want to see regulations stripped.

 

[lecter]

But I am not a democratic socialist, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.

I never said you are, I'm not a strict libertarian either.
I picked it as a random ideology to point out that you can summarize any political concept in one snarky sentence.

Anyway, your characterization of a welfare state is utter nonsense. Democratic Socialists want ....

Because it wasn't a serious characterization of a welfare state of democratic socialism. You dismissed a broad ideology with one 'funny', snarky sentence and I simply pointed out that you can do this with any political movement/philosophy and that it's inaccurate or at least doesn't say anything most of the time.
If you have more arguments for what you were trying to say really doesn't matter, the point is you should bring them up instead of ironic, empty phrases and simplifications, like almost every post in this thread.
@debating: Of course the subject would need to be more specific. I'll read the rules and sign up for a debate in the near future, then I'll tag your username and if you're interested you can join. I'd argue on most topics from a conservative, libertarian-leaning point of view.

 

[kpt018]

I never said you are, I'm not a strict libertarian either.
I picked it as a random ideology to point out that you can summarize any political concept in one snarky sentence.

It is perfectly fine to criticize bad ideologies and my one sentence on it was perfectly true. There are a few good things about libertarianism that are found in other political ideologies but the rest of it, particularly their ideas on taxes and the economy, are just fantasy land crap. They simply don't work and they can cause a lot of harm. It is perfectly acceptable to post a short response and I'm always happy to reply if other posters on interested. Understand that I am not going to spend time up front to avoid hurting people's feelings.

I guess you identify in part as libertarian so it hurt your feelings or something. But feel free to talk about the stuff you do support.

Because it wasn't a serious characterization of a welfare state of democratic socialism. You dismissed a broad ideology with one 'funny', snarky sentence and I simply pointed out that you can do this with any political movement/philosophy and that it's inaccurate or at least doesn't say anything most of the time.
If you have more arguments for what you were trying to say really doesn't matter, the point is you should bring them up instead of ironic, empty phrases and simplifications, like almost every post in this thread.

I've argued against libertarians on here a million times and am not going to rehash my whole view to avoid rustling your jimmies.

@debating: Of course the subject would need to be more specific. I'll read the rules and sign up for a debate in the near future, then I'll tag your username and if you're interested you can join. I'd argue on most topics from a conservative, libertarian-leaning point of view.

Well, I certainly sit on the other side of the political spectrum although we could agree on social issues and maybe even foreign policy.

I do my posting in between working (and I run the accounting department at a pretty large company, so I'm swamped) and can't commit a ton of time to it, so I'd like to be upfront about that. It wouldn't be fair to you if you invested time to get a couple of paragraph response in return. But I'd be happy to get in there assuming you're cool with that and the topic is interesting.

 

[lecter]

Understand that I am not going to spend time up front to avoid hurting people's feelings.
I guess you identify in part as libertarian so it hurt your feelings or something.

No, the point is simply that a short dismissal without argumentation doesn't add anything of value to a political discussion.
That's all I pointed out. You're still allowed to do it. I think we both should just move on for now. Maybe we get back to an actual discussion later.

I do my posting in between working (and I run the accounting department at a pretty large company, so I'm swamped) and can't commit a ton of time to it, so I'd like to be upfront about that. It wouldn't be fair to you if you invested time to get a couple of paragraph response in return. But I'd be happy to get in there assuming you're cool with that and the topic is interesting.

Sure, no problem.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

interesting. ive never heard of this new alternative called libertarianism before.

on a less sarcastic note, libertarians are the current "cool crowd" it seems. like being an "independent" is. even though, a good chunk of the people who claim to be those things.....arent. they just wish they were.

 

[uncommon]

Exactly. It's seductive for people who hate government but it's really just a Trojan horse aimed and building support against the government so as to unbridled business which then just holds as much if not considerably more influence over ones life... and you have virtually zero control or ability to combat that.

There are "libertarian" solutions to minimizing reliance on business and increasing individual self sufficiency.

Removal of minimum wage/ freindlier homesteading laws can drastically reduce the cost of living.

(removal of minimum wage creating the ability for small revenue services to exist outside of cities where the poorest dont have to compete over a fixed rental housing market)

I would bargain single payer healthcare for zero minimum wage.

 

[Jack V Savage]

There are "libertarian" solutions to minimizing reliance on business and increasing individual self sufficiency.

Removal of minimum wage/ freindlier homesteading laws can drastically reduce the cost of living.

(removal of minimum wage creating the ability for small revenue services to exist outside of cities where the poorest dont have to compete over a fixed rental housing market)

I would bargain single payer healthcare for zero minimum wage.

I don't think you're right that removing MW would have a noticeable effect on cost of living. The gov't giving away land for free would certainly help the people who receive the land.

Good piece on libertarianism here:

http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/triangle-man-and-libertarians.html

And I'd take your bargain, easily, though there would be a lot of disruption in the move to single payer, and I don't really see it being tolerable to the public.

 

[Buck Swope]

All the so-called libertarians I've met are nothing more that right-winged anarchist that drool over their monthly pamphlet from the Heritage foundation.

These same motherfuckers carry water for republican candidates, which makes NO sense to me. It flies in the face of reason.

Plus the dream of an unrestrained free market utopia is fucking retarded and the idea of the very young and naïve.

 

[Denter]

lol ok buddy

 

[Jack V Savage]

What are you criticizing? Libertarian-leaning politicians in the Republican party? The libertarian party in the US? Libertarianism?
The way you wrote it, you're obviously and factually wrong.
Was Albert Nock not a right-libertarian? Yes, he was.
Ayn Rand? A business lobbyist in the 1950s? Hm, interesting.
Would you assess Steiner-Vallentyne significantly different than whatever you call right-libertarian?

My point was oversimplified. There were business lobbyists pushing it before the 1950s and other influences, but the FEE (which was founded in 1946) is behind the foundation of the movement and the refining of the ideology.

 

[uncommon]

Good piece on libertarianism here:

http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/triangle-man-and-libertarians.html

That link gave me a headache, but basically its about checks and balances between the individual, business, and government?

I don't think you're right that removing MW would have a noticeable effect on cost of living. The gov't giving away land for free would certainly help the people who receive the land.

Im all for government maintaining control of national parks / public land for reasons of hunting/recreation to public. If we are to embolden the populus with self sufficiency we have to maintain the control of these tools to nature.

Also the price of acerage is simply not an issue in the first place. You can for example get land out in the middle of the desert of texas for practically free, with virually zero taxes.

The reason people cant attribute value to the land because the ability for business to conduct itsself on low revenue scales is rendered obsolete due to forced increase of operating costs (min wage)

The result of businesses not having the ability to conduct themselves remotely causes a cluster in cities/major cities. This causes a dependance on major population group to compete over fixed amount of property (rentals) and the result of this is the cost of living being higher than what minimum wage is capable of producing, creating a postitive feedback loop of ever increasing competition over fixed area, increased need of higher wages, increased need for welfare.

And I'd take your bargain, easily, though there would be a lot of disruption in the move to single payer, and I don't really see it being tolerable to the public.

I think the problem with my bargain is the removal of federal minimum wage really wouldnt impact state minimum wage laws, so forcing the states would probably be a necessity.
If single payer isnt feasible then what would be a better solution from the perspective of me as opposed to the perspective of you?

 

[Jack V Savage]

That link gave me a headache, but basically its about checks and balances between the individual, business, and government?

Also different levels of gov't and other institutions. There are lots of threats to freedom, and maximizing it requires balancing them all against each other. In America, the most powerful institution is also the most remote and least present in people's lives, and smaller ones that want to oppress people would like to keep it away.

Also the price of acerage is simply not an issue in the first place. You can for example get land out in the middle of the desert of texas for practically free, with virually zero taxes.

The reason people cant attribute value to the land because the ability for business to conduct itsself on low revenue scales is rendered obsolete due to forced increase of operating costs (min wage)

I think the reason remote land is not valuable is that people like to live among other people, and infrastructure isn't cost-effective in remote areas. MW has almost nothing to do with it. Note that people have always grouped themselves into cities, and the heights of economic and cultural activity has always been centered in cities--that's been true long before the existence of MWs or even the development of wage labor.

I think the problem with my bargain is the removal of federal minimum wage really wouldnt impact state minimum wage laws, so forcing the states would probably be a necessity.
If single payer isnt feasible then what would be a better solution from the perspective of me as opposed to the perspective of you?

You mean something you'd take in exchange for a MW elimination? How about a sovereign wealth fund paying for monthly cash benefits to children?

 

[uncommon]

MW has almost nothing to do with it. Note that people have always grouped themselves into cities, and the heights of economic and cultural activity has always been centered in cities--that's been true long before the existence of MWs or even the development of wage labor.

The penalty for grouping in a city has always been lower than the rewards for economic efficency in the past.

The penalty for grouping is competition, competition entails a loss of freedom (you can use your "willingly" counter here) and that competition was almost always worth having access to fuels/industry.

Now we can make the case that the compeition in major cities is too high for low skilled workers for the "low return" of having a more efficient access to industry.

Now obviously the goal isnt to curtail industry/eliminate automation, but to alleviate penalties of extreme compeition that go beyond what many people are capable of.

Im saying minimum wage is a start, not a utopic fix (im open to better solutions). Industry and fuels are plentiful to spread across wider areas of real estate to drive down the cost of competing while maintaining the benefit of the individual.

You mean something you'd take in exchange for a MW elimination? How about a sovereign wealth fund paying for monthly cash benefits to children?

Sounds similar to alaska, its something to think about.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

I love the idea of liberaltarism on paper (aside from open borders) -- unfortunately, all the poor people to low middle income in the country ruin it from making it a reality; which is a majority of the population.

Ironically, those people do live in a quasi liberaltarian existence:

-They pay little to no tax and they enjoy a existence with abundance freedoms. Plus they get all those extra securities not offered through an unrestricted free market system.

 

[TeTe]

Yeah, the real message of the Matrix is that we give tax cuts to rich people, workers should be more obedient, and we should allow more pollution.

Right-wing "libertarianism" was invented in the 1950s by business lobbyists, and it shows. Their marketing material suggests an inability to relate to young people and an assumption that they're all idiots. "Be young, have fun, drink Pepsi, and eviscerate the proletariat."

You mean smoke weed right? Lots of free, legal weed.

 

[drstrangelov]

Thank you for introducing this wild, novel concept to the forum. If only there were some type of alternative school of economics you could share with us too, maybe we could all stop being sheep.