Why do most amateurs struggle with the mechanics of sidekicks?

[ARIZE]

@PivotPunch

I've been doing 6 years of TKD (ITF) and more than 10 years of MT. I'm saying that to make it clear that i have some experience in both side kicks and teeps. (and also to make myself look cool obviously)

The side kick can be used in a striking motion, or in a pushing motion. It will still have the same name because the mechanics stay (almost) the same. What changes is:

-The distance of the target (near/far)
-The part of your foot that makes contact (heel/Sole)
-And the motion after the contact. (retract after contact/keep extending after contact)

The teep and the push kick are 2 different strikes with more differences than similarities. That's all I'm saying. I dint compare them to the side kick. And i agree with you that the side kick can be used as a teep, or as a push kick.

Just look at a TKD match they rarely throw it.

That almost what they only throw... They fight half the time with the front leg raised and chambered, hoping around. Its mostly used to keep distance,as a faint and to enter safely, but they do also score with it. A side kick to the body, retract and without touching down a second side kick to the face, is one of the most common combos learned in TKD.

To get enough power to make it really different from a teep you need to spin which they do in TKD.

A hoping/jumping/step side kick can be very powerful, even more than the rear one. The rear one is almost not used at all, because its a slow technique that leaves your front open while you rotate. And if you believe a teep is not a powerful strike, I really disagree with you.

 

[PivotPunch]

@PivotPunch

I've been doing 6 years of of TKD (ITF) and more than 10 years of MT. I'm saying that to make it clear that i have some experience in both side kicks and teeps. (and also to make myself look cool obviously)

The side kick can be used in a striking motion, or in a pushing motion. It will steal have the same name because the mechanics stay (almost) the same. What changes is:

-The distance of the target (near/far)
-The part of your foot that makes contact (heel/Sole)
-And the motion after the contact. (retract after contact/keep extending after contact)

The teep and the push kick are 2 different strikes with more differences than similarities. That's all I'm saying. I dint compare them to the side kick. And i agree with you that the side kick can be used as a teep, or as a push kick.



That almost what they only throw... They fight half the time with the front leg raised and chambered, hoping around. Its mostly used to keep distance,as a faint and to enter safely, but they do also score with it. A side kick to the body, retract and without touching down a second side kick to the face, is one of the most common combos learned in TKD.



A hoping/jumping/step side kick can be very powerful, even more than the rear one. The rear one is almost not used at all, because its a slow technique that leaves your front open while you rotate. And if you believe a teep is not a powerful strike, I really disagree with you.

A teep is a powerful strike but usually not a ko strike. Obviously it CAN stop someone like a side kick but it's rare. So as you say yourself usually it's used to measure distance, score and set up your offense like a jab in boxing or a teep in MT.

Yeah as a single strike it#s slow but in TKD most use it as a a counter. The most steroetypical TKD match is 2 guys measuring with the lead leg with side kicks and lead round kicks then one guy commits to the offence and the other guy spin either with a turning side kick or a heel kick and like fencing one guy usually manages to score. At least in WTF TKD

 

[ARIZE]

Agree with almost all except:

the other guy spin either with a turning side kick

The rear side kick is rarely used even as a counter. When you want to use your rear leg for a counter and not spin from your back side, it's either a turning kick (snap roundhouse) or a drop kick... (At least in TKD ITF, which is obviously the only TKD worth mentioning /troll). It's too hard and too slow to be able to put your rear knee in between yours and your opponent body when he closes the distance.
A lot faster and easy to hit from the side or from above.

Anyway, I hope i don't sound like an asshole, because even if I disagree, i really enjoy talking techniques...

 

[spacetime]

Wonderboy uses the sidekick as a full penetrating thrust to great effect in MMA, which was the original intention..not what it evolved too in TKd competitions. It was meant to do real damage

 

[PivotPunch]

Agree with almost all except:



The rear side kick is rarely used even as a counter. When you want to use your rear leg for a counter and not spin from your back side, it's either a turning kick (snap roundhouse) or a drop kick... (At least in TKD ITF, which is obviously the only TKD worth mentioning /troll). It's too hard and too slow to be able to put your rear knee in between yours and your opponent body when he closes the distance.
A lot faster and easy to hit from the side or from above.

Anyway, I hope i don't sound like an asshole, because even if I disagree, i really enjoy talking techniques...

No you don't sound like an asshole don't worry.

In WTF TKD it's basically like this.




but tbf even having done WTF TKD and enjoying it as a sport this video is cringey as fuck and making it out to be some hardcore combat even if knockouts do happen it's more like fancing with a little bit of braind amage here and there thanks to the honestly completely retarded ruleset.

At some points they spin into each other and keep spinning in the desperate hope of somehow activtating those fucking electronic vests their opponent is wearing.
ITF TKD is better honestly but basically fuck the Olympics and ruining combat sports most famously WTF TKD and judo

 

[CFGroup]

No you don't sound like an asshole don't worry.

In WTF TKD it's basically like this.




but tbf even having done WTF TKD and enjoying it as a sport this video is cringey as fuck and making it out to be some hardcore combat even if knockouts do happen it's more like fancing with a little bit of braind amage here and there thanks to the honestly completely retarded ruleset.

At some points they spin into each other and keep spinning in the desperate hope of somehow activtating those fucking electronic vests their opponent is wearing.
ITF TKD is better honestly but basically fuck the Olympics and ruining combat sports most famously WTF TKD and judo

The only problem with your criticism is those TKD and Judo guys are a million times the athletes of the other combat sports, because it's the Olympics.

Back in the 90's when TKD was added to the Olympics the quality of competitors took a huge leap forward. Just like all Olympic sports it attracts the best of the best in world competition because of its prestige.

Oh and if you really study the ruleset of ITF TKD full "excessive" contact is bared and points can be taken while WTF rules don't have that penalty for full contact whether or not fighters choose to game the rules and just make contact.

You guys should really study up on the basics before proclaiming stuff you clearly haven't learned.

I'd think that MMA forum regulars would shy away from saying "This or that is lame and not effective" when clearly Bellator and UFC are littered with examples of rule set adjustments from sport or point fighting resulting in top contenders in any given weight class.

3 years of any of those WTF Olympians training MMA and they'd be mopping the floor with all but the best at gaming the MMA rule set. Pettis and Rodriguez weren't even close the the Olympics and look how far they've got. Former UFC champ and current #8 rank.

That said I still like the more traditional ITF combat oriented system, but I'd never pass up on my old WTF years back when it had been added to the Olympics and competing at the nationals to make the American team.

 

[PivotPunch]

The only problem with your criticism is those TKD and Judo guys are a million times the athletes of the other combat sports, because it's the Olympics.

Back in the 90's when TKD was added to the Olympics the quality of competitors took a huge leap forward. Just like all Olympic sports it attracts the best of the best in world competition because of its prestige.

Oh and if you really study the ruleset of ITF TKD full "excessive" contact is bared and points can be taken while WTF rules don't have that penalty for full contact whether or not fighters choose to game the rules and just make contact.

You guys should really study up on the basics before proclaiming stuff you clearly haven't learned.

I'd think that MMA forum regulars would shy away from saying "This or that is lame and not effective" when clearly Bellator and UFC are littered with examples of rule set adjustments from sport or point fighting resulting in top contenders in any given weight class.

3 years of any of those WTF Olympians training MMA and they'd be mopping the floor with all but the best at gaming the MMA rule set. Pettis and Rodriguez weren't even close the the Olympics and look how far they've got. Former UFC champ and current #8 rank.

That said I still like the more traditional ITF combat oriented system, but I'd never pass up on my old WTF years back when it had been added to the Olympics and competing at the nationals to make the American team.

I never said it wasn't effective. I said the side kick is often like a teep which you yourself agreed with. Then I said WTF rules are shit and I don't see how they aren't. Yes the level of TKD got better but the rules are shit.

The 3 year thing isn't true though. With a kicking game you need extra good TDD and/or grappling not the kind fo grappling you get in 3 years even if you are athletic.
Pettis and Rodriguez trained a lot longer than 3 years before they made it into the UFC and Pettis has been training at a kickboxing gym for a really long time

 

[spacetime]

I never said it wasn't effective. I said the side kick is often like a teep which you yourself agreed with. Then I said WTF rules are shit and I don't see how they aren't. Yes the level of TKD got better but the rules are shit.

The 3 year thing isn't true though. With a kicking game you need extra good TDD and/or grappling not the kind fo grappling you get in 3 years even if you are athletic.
Pettis and Rodriguez trained a lot longer than 3 years before they made it into the UFC and Pettis has been training at a kickboxing gym for a really long time

Pettis had trained boxing as well next to his TKD, and his hands are still weak.

 

[CFGroup]

Pettis had trained boxing as well next to his TKD, and his hands are still weak.

Honestly I don't know what the fuck happened to Pettis, but he hasn't looked as loose and quick since he lost the belt. I don't know his training regiment, but it doesn't seem to be as complementary to his former strong points.

I know from my own training experience I lost at least a third of my TKD/KB flexibility and fluid speed when I went back to Judo. I'm thinking that grappling arts Judo, Wrestling, BJJ cause impact in your body from hitting the floor that makes your body protect itself with conditioning a different muscle groups that effect foot speed and standing mobility.

Sry for the rambling.....

 

[CFGroup]

I never said it wasn't effective. I said the side kick is often like a teep which you yourself agreed with. Then I said WTF rules are shit and I don't see how they aren't. Yes the level of TKD got better but the rules are shit.

The 3 year thing isn't true though. With a kicking game you need extra good TDD and/or grappling not the kind fo grappling you get in 3 years even if you are athletic.
Pettis and Rodriguez trained a lot longer than 3 years before they made it into the UFC and Pettis has been training at a kickboxing gym for a really long time

Yair started MMA in 2011 and was on the UF in 2014...

Hmm...What's the math on that?

Nah....I just bristle at people saying this or that is shit, when time and time again adapting training to other rule sets have proved that short sighted.

I miss interpreted your view...

And plus I wish WTF TKD was more like back in the day when it was in the Olympics but with the older coaching generation without the excelled athleticism of us guys coming up not that I made it that far. That's where you were trained for the KO and scored points with your hands rather than now where it seems all about scoring with your feet and KO's as a freebie bonus.

...And yes I know there's huge exceptions to that observation so I don't need the pedentics to post a zillion clips of point scoring with the hands in the last 10 years.....

 

[PivotPunch]

Yair started MMA in 2011 and was on the UF in 2014...

Hmm...What's the math on that?

Nah....I just bristle at people saying this or that is shit, when time and time again adapting training to other rule sets have proved that short sighted.

I miss interpreted your view...

And plus I wish WTF TKD was more like back in the day when it was in the Olympics but with the older coaching generation without the excelled athleticism of us guys coming up not that I made it that far. That's where you were trained for the KO and scored points with your hands rather than now where it seems all about scoring with your feet and KO's as a freebie bonus.

...And yes I know there's huge exceptions to that observation so I don't need the pedentics to post a zillion clips of point scoring with the hands in the last 10 years.....

If I was nitpicking I would say he fought his first UFC opponent in 2015 TUF doesnt really count no one there was a UFC fighter either. But yeah he did well.

Don't you think the concept of WTF TKD is bad to begin with? It is full contact but with stops whenever a point is scored and vests plus helmets (with the vest being the bigger issue). If you removed those things then it would be Kyokushin rules which means removing it wouldn't be an option either. To me stops whenever a point is scored isnt something that belonds toa full contact style and int he end that always leads to it becoming mostly point scoring even if you are allowed to hit with full force.

If I could change it I would simply, remove the vests, make punches illegal (necessary evil or it becomes Kyokushin and thus pointless) and do away with the stops when a point is scored maybe even change the scoring and make it like boxing. TKD is mostly known for its kciks anyway so make it really the kicking equivalent to boxing, make it kicks only but make it a proper combat sport and not a game of tag

 

[Frode Falch]

TS: you say that your sidekick is by far your best technique. Yet in your bragging boxing thread you claim that your kicking game sucks. And that your hands are your sharpest tools..

So..

 

[Frode Falch]

Also. Rogan is a party trick kicker. Nothing more.

Kinda like how ronda looked good om pads for the untrained eyes

 

[CFGroup]

If I was nitpicking I would say he fought his first UFC opponent in 2015 TUF doesnt really count no one there was a UFC fighter either. But yeah he did well.

Don't you think the concept of WTF TKD is bad to begin with? It is full contact but with stops whenever a point is scored and vests plus helmets (with the vest being the bigger issue). If you removed those things then it would be Kyokushin rules which means removing it wouldn't be an option either. To me stops whenever a point is scored isnt something that belonds toa full contact style and int he end that always leads to it becoming mostly point scoring even if you are allowed to hit with full force.

If I could change it I would simply, remove the vests, make punches illegal (necessary evil or it becomes Kyokushin and thus pointless) and do away with the stops when a point is scored maybe even change the scoring and make it like boxing. TKD is mostly known for its kciks anyway so make it really the kicking equivalent to boxing, make it kicks only but make it a proper combat sport and not a game of tag

Fuck me sideways I've been out of that game forever....

Back in the late 90's it was 3, 2 minute rounds with no stoppage other than out of bounds, injury or KO...And you'd fight as many elimination matches to gold or silver for your weight class in the day.

All the refs were in their late 30's or older and part of the generation that scored for full contact like the original sparring art.

The point fighting system has been implemented in the last 15 or 20 years...

Damn I've been out of that game forever...

 

[Azam]

I've never had a particularly good side kick but then again it's a technique I barely use in sparring and one I've never really bothered to develop or work on. This from years of training karate.

Personally I'm in the back kick camp (I've noticed that there is a preference for this kick in Kyokushin as well compared to the side kick) - I prefer the back kick in every way compared to the side kick. It's easier for beginners or amateurs to use and doesn't require as much flexibility.

Also personally I've found the back kick to generally be less telegraphed and quicker & better in short range (as you don't need to rotate your hips or keep your knee up as much) - probably why you see spinning back kicks in KK competitions rather than spinning side kicks.

 

[spacetime]

TS: you say that your sidekick is by far your best technique. Yet in your bragging boxing thread you claim that your kicking game sucks. And that your hands are your sharpest tools..

So..

There's a difference between performing techniques in isolation and in sparring. In sparring I lack the natural fluency of TKD fighters. I can't do combos.

 

[Frode Falch]

You mean kick combos?

 

[spacetime]

You mean kick combos?

Yes.....

 

[Frode Falch]

My guess is that your footwork is where the problem is at

 

[spacetime]

My guess is that your footwork is where the problem is at

It's my lack of balance. I have fine balance performing the techniques once, but I can't do them in repetition. There's also the issue of flexibility. I use forward momentum to perform techniques, something I have to disregard if I cut down on the force to do combos.