Why did people act as if BJJ was something new when it's just Newaza Judo?

[spacetime]

But look at a judo competition vs a Bjj competition. Completely different things. .

Look at Karate and TaeKwonDo. Completely different sports. Then when you investigate their respective curriculums you will find that all formal techniques in Karate are also in TaeKwonDo.

The difference is that the method used differ between those striking arts (positioning of the body, stances when executing strikes). But in grappling, a choke is a choke. There is no way around that.

 

[spacetime]

So, why couldn't they just say they were using Judo? It's dishonest to talk about "my grandfathers system" when all he's doing is Old School Newaza JUDO!

 

[dsdoubled]

Look at Karate and TaeKwonDo. Completely different sports. Then when you investigate their respective curriculums you will find that all formal techniques in Karate are also in TaeKwonDo.

The difference is that the method used differ between those striking arts (positioning of the body, stances when executing strikes). But in grappling, a choke is a choke. There is no way around that.

I think again it comes down to competition. For the most part at least. They strike the way they do in those sports bc of the structure of the rules in competition. Correct me if Im wrong but I believe that in TKD you don't have to worry about being punched so they are free to really focus on kicks. In Kyokushin comps there are punches but not to the head. That's just one example. Likewise, in Bjj comps you see a lot of guys working guard for extended periods of time. You wont see this in judo or wrestling for obvious reasons. Whether we are talking about Muay Thai vs boxing, sambo vs bjj, wrestling vs judo, etc I believe that the purpose (in most cases that would be sport) shapes the training and the training shapes the fighter.

 

[dsdoubled]

So, why couldn't they just say they were using Judo? It's dishonest to talk about "my grandfathers system" when all he's doing is Old School Newaza JUDO!

Honestly I think the Gracies were better at honing their craft for its intended purpose(s) than anyone in judo has been in modern times. Take any 5 year judo student and put him in an ADCC style match against a 5 year Bjj student and most times the Bjjer wins.

 

[spacetime]

I think again it comes down to competition. For the most part at least. They strike the way they do in those sports bc of the structure of the rules in competition. Correct me if Im wrong but I believe that in TKD you don't have to worry about being punched so they are free to really focus on kicks. In Kyokushin comps there are punches but not to the head. That's just one example. Likewise, in Bjj comps you see a lot of guys working guard for extended periods of time. You wont see this in judo or wrestling for obvious reasons. Whether we are talking about Muay Thai vs boxing, sambo vs bjj, wrestling vs judo, etc I believe that the purpose (in most cases that would be sport) shapes the training and the training shapes the fighter.

Olympic TaeKwondo you can punch the midsection. ITF Taekwondo you can punch the head and midsection.

My point is not that Judo guys are comparable ground grapplers to BJJ. Far from it. But BJJ guys are still using Judo, yet its promoted as it's own system. It was not.

Check out pre Olympics Judo and there's plenty of ground game focus. Kimura schooled Helio Gracie on the ground.

 

[Coconutwater]

Honestly I think the Gracies were better at honing their craft for its intended purpose(s) than anyone in judo has been in modern times. Take any 5 year judo student and put him in an ADCC style match against a 5 year Bjj student and most times the Bjjer wins.

Yeah, but throwing someone on their skull on either dirt or concrete will end a confrontation much faster than a typical BJJ solution of close the distance, takedown, obtain a solid position and submit.
Judo, like it’s root art, ju-jitsu, doesn’t focus too much on the ground because in warfare that would get you murdered more likely than not, hence the 20-30 seconds allowed to work ground until being stood up again.

 

[spacetime]

Yeah, but throwing someone on their skull on either dirt or concrete will end a confrontation much faster than a typical BJJ solution of close the distance, takedown, obtain a solid position and submit.
Judo, like it’s root art, ju-jitsu, doesn’t focus too much on the ground because in warfare that would get you murdered more likely than not, hence the 20-30 seconds allowed to work ground until being stood up again.

You make it sound as if it's a piece of cake. Do you think an average Judoka can dump Michael Jai White or Brock Lesnar on their head? Doesn't it depend too much on who it is? Just take ronda Rouseys last two fights.. She didn't dump anyone on their head.. And she's Olympic silver medel level.

 

[Coconutwater]

You make it sound as if it's a piece of cake. Do you think an average Judoka can dump Michael Jai White or Brock Lesnar on their head? Doesn't it depend too much on who it is? Just take ronda Rouseys last two fights.. She didn't dump anyone on their head.. And she's Olympic silver medel level.

When did I ever imply that dumping Ronda or Brock is easy?

The point is, judo is a more expedient solution than bjj in an average street confrontation against an average opponent.

Same goes for warfare.

Samurai jujitsu didn’t geek out on newaza because they simply wouldn’t have the time to implement the strategy.

 

[Dogstarman]

The Gracies in particular marketed it as a new system, when it's simply Newaza Judo.. And people seemed to buy it.

Why?

 

[spacetime]

When did I ever imply that dumping Ronda or Brock is easy?

The point is, judo is a more expedient s.

I didn't say dumping Ronda. I said ronda failed to dump people.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I didn't say dumping Ronda. I said ronda failed to dump people.

Did she try to dump people?

 

[spacetime]

Did she try to dump people?

On their head. Now granted, mma IS NOT exactly a jacket worn situation but still...

 

[1PBCE1]

I didn't say dumping Ronda. I said ronda failed to dump people.

Wrong again

 

[spacetime]

Wrong again

She sure didn't dump the Kickboxer on her head. But Holly Holmes was an Olympic Judoka, right?

 

[Coconutwater]

Did she try to dump people?

My bad, point is, generally speaking, a properly trained judoka or wrestler is better at slamming someone on the ground than a BJJ’er.

 

[Quebec Nick]

I have no issues with Brazilian Jujitsu, but the fact remains that there is nothing Brazilian about it, it's simply Judo with an emphasis on the groundgame.

If I took Karate and emphasized the kicks (kind of like the Koreans did with TaeKwonDo), am I suddenly doing a different art?

It surely is another sport, the rules are not the same and the training is not the same.

I think that BJJ is a big enough evolution from Judo to say it's a different martial art. The difference is a lot bigger than between Karate and TKD or Muay Thai and kickboxing.

The brazilians tweeked it a lot with all the guards variations and all the sweeps that goes with them

So for me it's an art of his own, but you should at least consider it as a new style

 

[spacetime]

My bad, point is, generally speaking, a properly trained judoka or wrestler is better at slamming someone on the ground than a BJJ’er.

This raises an interesting question. Do high level BJJ guys have tricks up their sleeves to prevent from being thrown in Gi-grappling against Judokas, say in an open grappling competition?

 

[Coconutwater]

This raises an interesting question. Do high level BJJ guys have tricks up their sleeves to prevent from being thrown in Gi-grappling against Judokas, say in an open grappling competition?

No because being slammed on a mat is often a sacrifice a BJJ’er can make to apply their guard game or newaza. The trade off between losing two points and getting the fight to the ground is negligible and often is helpful against a wrestler or judoka who can avoid groundwork if their goal was simply to avoid the ground, which is where BJJ hugely thrives.

On cement or dirt, the application of ground offense is often negated because the SLAM or IMPACT of being taken taken down is usually powerful enough to hurt the opponent or injure them long enough to follow through with a finishing blow or submission.

This is something we hardly ever see on mats.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Newaza judo isn't exactly the same. You can get pinned in bottom side control, half guard, or mount. But jiujitsu invented techniques to deal with this considering the rule set. That's one of a million distinct differences in techniques or whatever you are trying to prove.

If you think newaza judo is the end all be all to ground game in bjj your fuckin retarded or just trying to shit on bjj founders/creators. Your agenda is dumb and annoying. That's like saying karate invented every strike ever.

Btw taekwon do is the gayest martial art ever

 

[Ryo]

You can't be pinned in halfguard in Judo.