Why can you train BJJ later in life, but not wrestling?

[Kaffe]

All this talk about ego.

When I was a kid, I'd play action games on my Nintendo. When I got a game, I would usually select normal difficulty. This was usually sufficient to give me a fun challenge. After a while, I got better, and had to switch to hard mode to keep the game fun because I'd stopped dying on normal mode. I never got good enough to play on the very hard mode without getting game over within minutes. A friend of mine managed to beat the game on very hard though. That didn't bother me, as hard mode gave me a challenging and fun experience until I got bored by the game itself.

For something to be entertaining for a normal individual, it has to have more possible outcomes than instant game over. Nor can it be a cakewalk, as that gets stale quickly. An even matchup is the proper difficulty level for participants to have the maximum combined amount of fun.

It's not like the winner of the white belt division doesn't know that he's playing on easy difficulty when he's celebrating.

 

[Aethyr]

Here is what I did say: BJJ has divisions to protect weaker players from strong players, to protect their ego. Why? Because no one would compete if they knew there was a strong chance of them getting their ass kicked. This is why tournaments will offer 5 divisions per 9 weights in 7 adult age categories. If you dont want to call that protecting the ego of competitors so that they will be more inclined to compete, what would you call it?

People get their ass kicked in their academies all the time. Ass kicking isn't the problem. What people don't want is to pay the tournament fee, drive/fly hundreds/thousands of miles, book a hotel, and then get their ass kicked, and go home. You waste a huge amount of time and money for nothing. Its not just ego at play here, there's money and time. And as you get older, and dare I say wiser, the more you realize time and money are more important than ego.

And the reason why wrestling has fewer categories is because nobody wants to wrestle as an adult past college. If they created age categories at 5 year increments, there wouldn't be any competitors in them. That's the simple, logical explanation instead of some convoluted passive aggressive attempt to degrade jiu-jitsu because 1 bjj organization happens to offer more categories than wrestling.

 

[Iplaytolose]

This is a pretty informative thread for me. I've always wanted to train in some grappling art form because we never had a wrestling team at the school I went to. It's nice to know that bjj is something that can be picked up as an adult because it can be a downer to know you missed out on all your opportunities as a kid lol.

 

[brendan raedy]

The real reason is that unlike bjj, wrestling doesnt protect practitioners from losing or facing someone tougher. BJJ has 5 belt levels, 9 weights per belt, and 6 age divisions for adults. Wrestling has 6 weight classes, 1 division. You cant hide from getting beat and you cant hide from people who are tougher than you.

For kids, this isnt a problem. They dont have the egos yet that adults have. They dont react to pressure and the threat of embarrassment the same way adults do. This is why they will go out and compete against everyone, while adults who know they cant train as hard as the best will sit out in wrestling.

In BJJ, this isnt an issue because there are a combined 270 divisions of belt, age, and skill for adults to enter to compete against those who also are old, dont train much, and arent that good. Saves the ego.

Dont put words into my mouth or twist what I said in any way to fit your argument. I never said the only reason why people compete in BJJ is to protect egos. The fact that you interpreted it like that shows you already have an agenda and it isnt to take an opinion at face value.

Here is what I did say: BJJ has divisions to protect weaker players from strong players, to protect their ego. Why? Because no one would compete if they knew there was a strong chance of them getting their ass kicked. This is why tournaments will offer 5 divisions per 9 weights in 7 adult age categories. If you dont want to call that protecting the ego of competitors so that they will be more inclined to compete, what would you call it?

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your argument. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

Ultimately tournament promoters would not offer multiple divisions, or offer far fewer, if competitors did not demand it. That is correct.

But you are comparing apples to oranges. The number of NCAA wrestlers or senior level international wrestlers in the United States is miniscule compared to the number of people doing BJJ in the US. Part of that is because many start BJJ at 30 years or older. Nobody is starting wrestling at 30. Almost nobody is starting after 18, and not that many after freshman year of high school around 14-15.

Do tournament promoters do this to make more money? Sure, in part. But simple timing and logistical issues require BJJ to break down competitions into divisions. Blue belt divisions often have 64, 72, 80 man brackets or bigger. Would some drop off if you combined them with black belt? Sure. But not all. I've had 12 matches in one day for BJJ, and I don't think I have ever had anything approaching that in wrestling.

More to the point, I don't think it's protecting ego to not expect a 45 year old tax accountant who has been training for 2 years to compete against a 20 year old black belt. I don't think most people in BJJ are afraid to get beat up, they just want a fair shake. We don't expect JV middle school wrestlers to compete at Midlands.

People are people and egos are egos, both in wrestling and BJJ. Coaches protect egos by redshirting wrestlers. Wrestlers protect egos by bumping up or down in weight for a year or a match, or by purposefully not making weight. Cadets and Juniors wrestle in separate divisions at Fargo. Wrestling really doesn't have tournament promoters the way BJJ does, it has tournament organizers who do things the way they do because they have always been done that way. BJJ had a chance to build something from the ground up in the past 20 years.

I'm sure you know plenty about wrestling, but it really seems like you could learn a lot more when it comes to jiu jitsu.

 

[deadlizard]

So where are we at? Are we still talking about practice?

 

[freakroor]

Its assinine to think hardly anyone would pay 130 bucks to get thrown in with serious upper belt level competitors.

I think the upper belts would probably be more upset about this than the lowers.

random matchups would make tournaments more of a spectacle though

 

[brendan raedy]

I think the upper belts would probably be more upset about this than the lowers.

random matchups would make tournaments more of a spectacle though

Well you have some of those historically with the casual black belts entering adult divisions. Bob from Ohio will usually drop out when he sees he drew Roger Gracie first round, but not always.

Honestly I think in a lot of ways winning blue belt Mundials can be more difficult because of the number of matches you have to win to get there. And those are 6 minute matches.

Imagine having to do 6-7-8 ten minute matches?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Dont put words into my mouth or twist what I said in any way to fit your argument. I never said the only reason why people compete in BJJ is to protect egos. The fact that you interpreted it like that shows you already have an agenda and it isnt to take an opinion at face value.

Here is what I did say: BJJ has divisions to protect weaker players from strong players, to protect their ego. Why? Because no one would compete if they knew there was a strong chance of them getting their ass kicked. This is why tournaments will offer 5 divisions per 9 weights in 7 adult age categories. If you dont want to call that protecting the ego of competitors so that they will be more inclined to compete, what would you call it?

I'm not sure why that's a question of ego. I don't do all sorts of things that I know are hopeless, doesn't make it an ego issue. I freely admit that I'll never dunk on Dwight Howard, does that mean that if I didn't choose to spend a bunch of my own time and money to go compete against Dwight Howard that it's an ego issue? It seems to me that that's a question of knowing your level rather than ego.

I'm well aware that I'll not ever beat the best guys in BJJ in my weight class, and no I would not fly to Long Beach to lose to Andre Galvao in the first round. But I don't think I'm better than him, and I'm certainly not avoiding competition so that I can maintain in my own mind that I'm better than black belt Mundials medalists. I just want to compete in divisions with guys of similar weight and skill level, and thankfully BJJ provides me with a way to do this. It would be egotistical if I thought I was the man because I won a Masters purple belt division, but I'm not that arrogant/stupid. It means I was the best guy in that division that day, but has nothing to do with my standing relative to the guys I know to be the best in the world. So I'm really not sure why you keep ranting about ego when ego as most people understand it has nothing to do with having divisions for lower belts. Just because wrestling doesn't have skill divisions doesn't make everyone else egotistical, it's just a reflections of the differences between a sport run exclusively for serious competitors and a sport run largely for hobbyists.

 

[brendan raedy]

I'm not sure why that's a question of ego. I don't do all sorts of things that I know are hopeless, doesn't make it an ego issue. I freely admit that I'll never dunk on Dwight Howard, does that mean that if I didn't choose to spend a bunch of my own time and money to go compete against Dwight Howard that it's an ego issue? It seems to me that that's a question of knowing your level rather than ego.

I'm well aware that I'll not ever beat the best guys in BJJ in my weight class, and no I would not fly to Long Beach to lose to Andre Galvao in the first round. But I don't think I'm better than him, and I'm certainly not avoiding competition so that I can maintain in my own mind that I'm better than black belt Mundials medalists. I just want to compete in divisions with guys of similar weight and skill level, and thankfully BJJ provides me with a way to do this. It would be egotistical if I thought I was the man because I won a Masters purple belt division, but I'm not that arrogant/stupid. It means I was the best guy in that division that day, but has nothing to do with my standing relative to the guys I know to be the best in the world. So I'm really not sure why you keep ranting about ego when ego as most people understand it has nothing to do with having divisions for lower belts. Just because wrestling doesn't have skill divisions doesn't make everyone else egotistical, it's just a reflections of the differences between a sport run exclusively for serious competitors and a sport run largely for hobbyists.

I know this is not your argument, but it is patently false to suggest that wrestling does not have skill divisions, as has been pointed out a number of times already.

I get that we wrestlers are tough and competitive, but our perceptions of such still need to be grounded in reality.

 

[Dirty Holt]

I know this is not your argument, but it is patently false to suggest that wrestling does not have skill divisions, as has been pointed out a number of times already.

I get that we wrestlers are tough and competitive, but our perceptions of such still need to be grounded in reality.

I do not believe there are separate skill divisions. There are different divisions in college, which arent skill divisions. In addition, they compete against each other on a daily basis, and many times there will be guys beating DI wrestlers on a daily basis.

I would not consider that fact at all. Coming from an NAIA team, we regularly beat DI teams and I beat 2 NCAA champions in 2008. I would not consider myself some kind of standout in college. The trend is that better guys gravitate towards DI, but that doesnt make it a skill divisiona nd it doesnt preclude it from competing against other NCAA or NAIA entities in competition.

 

[brendan raedy]

I do not believe there are separate skill divisions. There are different divisions in college, which arent skill divisions. In addition, they compete against each other on a daily basis, and many times there will be guys beating DI wrestlers on a daily basis.

I would not consider that fact at all. Coming from an NAIA team, we regularly beat DI teams and I beat 2 NCAA champions in 2008. I would not consider myself some kind of standout in college. The trend is that better guys gravitate towards DI, but that doesnt make it a skill divisiona nd it doesnt preclude it from competing against other NCAA or NAIA entities in competition.

There are plenty of NAIA, D2 and D3 wrestlers that could do well at the D1 level, but overall, the talent level is higher which each successive division you move up. D3/D2 might get hazy slightly because there are way more D3 teams than D2, but the general point remains. I think we generally agree on this.

If that is the case, does the NCAA offer multiple divisions to shelter wrestlers egos? Do athletes chose NAIA or D2 or D3 to protect their egos? Maybe some do, but I don't think many. Mostly they pick the school, program, and school-sports-life balance that works best for them.

I'm sure there are blue, purple and brown belts that could hop in and do well at the black belt level. Obviously more as you work your way up to brown. Especially no-gi. But overall, each successive belt has more skill, with black belt having the highest talent level.

Most advanced no-gi tournaments are those with 3 years of experience and above, so you basically have blue to black belt competing against one another. That's not IBJJF, but neither is NAIA NCAA. Advanced no-gi divisions at GQ, NAGA, USG almost always have plenty of competitors which would run contrary to the perception that a combined division would drive folks away due to ego. When I was a blue belt, I actively sought out those divisions for the chance to test myself against purple brown and black belts, and I know there were and are plenty of others that do the same.

For others in BJJ, they chose the division that is best for their work-life-bjj balance. People are people, and you can't whitewash the motivations of athletes and tournament directors in one sport against the motivations of athletes tournament directors in another.

 

[deadlizard]

Pretty sure he was talking about competitive jiu jitsu and not BJJ practice.

You actually quoted him:
"Competitive jiu jitsu relies tremendously on physical attributes, just as much if not more so than wrestling."

You misunderstood me.

Like everyone on sherdog, I only respond to what I think he wrote, not what he actually wrote.

 

[Deethecraven]

Let me tell ya........I am over 50...... anybody want to Train with me? Long Island NY Nassau ..... THE BEST WAY to train when you are older is to get onto YOUTUBE and Study the takedowns that are shown by Wrestling instructors. I started training when I was 40. I learned the Boxing very well but the Wrestling Takedowns were another Story... In a BJJ school I got flipped by a one of those Full Moon sillies who attended class only when it was in the mood... I got flipped because I was attempting a takedown incorrectly and the other guy was experienced. At that time I was looking at the YOUTUBE Boxing instruction Blogs but not the Wrestling...After that incident I started looking at the Wrestling Blogs....They Helped me a lot I found that you have to study the moves in your Head just like studying for a College exam ... Just review and review the moves and Rules in your Head...One thing they say is if you take down somebody by Grabbing one leg Keep you head inside and if grabbing both legs you can put your head outside but you must get in close and Bend and Kneel do not lean in!!

 

[Julian Smith]

Well if you're in New Jersey there are two wrestling schools that teach actual wrestling to adults. Edge wrestling, one in hoboken and another deeper west. I realize how unique that is when I come on here and see threads like this.

 

[rmongler]

Oh hey this thread again. Haven't seen brendan around much lately, wonder what happened too him.

 

[Magic Swag]

Find good wrestlers. Easy as that.

Wrestlers will do private lessons for pennies on the dollar compared to BJJ guys. I have a D2 wrestler that does privates for me 15/hr when I pay up front for 10 lessons

Exactly. I'm 35, and I pay for private wrestling instruction to complement my BJJ. It's fairly pricey though, far more than what the above quote states. Either way: if you're in good enough shape, if you're humble and tough enough to be OK with getting your ass whooped, and if you're willing to find good wresters, you can wrestle.

 

[jack36767]

Exactly. I'm 35, and I pay for private wrestling instruction to complement my BJJ. It's fairly pricey though, far more than what the above quote states. Either way: if you're in good enough shape, if you're humble and tough enough to be OK with getting your ass whooped, and if you're willing to find good wresters, you can wrestle.

the key

 

[Thycidides]

Is wrestling a youth sport internationally too? Do Iranian and Mongolian wrestlers stop competing in their mid 20's like USA counterparts?

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

knees.

And gravity. I started wrestling (and judo) as a kid, when I weighed maybe 70 pounds soaking wet. Gravity didn't mean much back then, takedowns and falling (including off of trees and monkey-bars) were painless; you hit the ground and were back on your feet like you were made of Indian rubber. Didn't even matter how you fell, you were so light it didn't matter; eventually you got good at it. Plus your bones were half cartilage and so most of the time bent rather than broke, and even when they broke healed so fast it didn't matter. Plus all the cute girls would come around to sign your cast for the week or so you had it on.

As an adult I'm used to being taken down/thrown, but even with much better breakfall than I had as a kid starting out, I feel it much more - doubling your mass, even if most of it is fit weight, does that, as does being thrown from a higher height by a heavier opponent. I can't imagine starting as an older (ie 30+) adult; the falls alone would be reason to find a different activity. Like ground oriented BJJ.

BTW, this applies to a number of sports. Its why adults almost never learn to ski as well as people who started as kids. Falling on skis as a child is actually fun, you're so close to the ground and so light there's no hesitation to try things. Falling as an adult is not so good. And there's no bragging rights showing up at work with your arm in a cast.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

And gravity. I started wrestling (and judo) as a kid, when I weighed maybe 70 pounds soaking wet. Gravity didn't mean much back then, takedowns and falling (including off of trees and monkey-bars) were painless; you hit the ground and were back on your feet like you were made of Indian rubber. Didn't even matter how you fell, you were so light it didn't matter; eventually you got good at it. Plus your bones were half cartilage and so most of the time bent rather than broke, and even when they broke healed so fast it didn't matter. Plus all the cute girls would come around to sign your cast for the week or so you had it on.

As an adult I'm used to being taken down/thrown, but even with much better breakfall than I had as a kid starting out, I feel it much more - doubling your mass, even if most of it is fit weight, does that, as does being thrown from a higher height by a heavier opponent. I can't imagine starting as an older (ie 30+) adult; the falls alone would be reason to find a different activity. Like ground oriented BJJ.

BTW, this applies to a number of sports. Its why adults almost never learn to ski as well as people who started as kids. Falling on skis as a child is actually fun, you're so close to the ground and so light there's no hesitation to try things. Falling as an adult is not so good. And there's no bragging rights showing up at work with your arm in a cast.

gravity is a myth, it doesnt exist.