Why can you train BJJ later in life, but not wrestling?

I really can't. I don't even know how to begin since you seemed to have made up your mind about it already.

Wrestling practice = bjj practice said no wrestler ever. Except for you.

Pretty sure he was talking about competitive jiu jitsu and not BJJ practice.

You actually quoted him:
"Competitive jiu jitsu relies tremendously on physical attributes, just as much if not more so than wrestling."
 
Pretty sure he was talking about competitive jiu jitsu and not BJJ practice.

You actually quoted him:
"Competitive jiu jitsu relies tremendously on physical attributes, just as much if not more so than wrestling."

Do they not go together?
 
Do they not go together?

What most people usually do for BJJ is a class rather than a practice. Probably most comparable to an off-season freestyle or greco roman club for wrestlers in the United States.

Practice for wrestling, even high school, usually starts with running and stretching, then drilling on the feet and on the mat, situational gos, and then live wrestling with partners or in groups. There might be more technique in the earlier part of the season, but most of the time it's pointers on moves rather than building something from the ground up like you will with lower belts in BJJ.

Most jiu jitsu schools in my experience do 30 minutes of warm ups, 30 minutes of techniques, and 30 minutes of sparring. Obviously, watching a move for 5 minutes and then drilling it for 10, back for a variation or follow up and then drilling it for 10 is not incredibly strenuous. Particularly if you are learning a move rather than repeatedly drilling it, like with uchi komi in judo.

If you are a part of a good club, on a competition team, and have good training partners, BJJ practice can be just as if not more hard than wrestling practice.
 
What most people usually do for BJJ is a class rather than a practice. Probably most comparable to an off-season freestyle or greco roman club for wrestlers in the United States.

Practice for wrestling, even high school, usually starts with running and stretching, then drilling on the feet and on the mat, situational gos, and then live wrestling with partners or in groups. There might be more technique in the earlier part of the season, but most of the time it's pointers on moves rather than building something from the ground up like you will with lower belts in BJJ.

Most jiu jitsu schools in my experience do 30 minutes of warm ups, 30 minutes of techniques, and 30 minutes of sparring. Obviously, watching a move for 5 minutes and then drilling it for 10, back for a variation or follow up and then drilling it for 10 is not incredibly strenuous. Particularly if you are learning a move rather than repeatedly drilling it, like with uchi komi in judo.

If you are a part of a good club, on a competition team, and have good training partners, BJJ practice can be just as if not more hard than wrestling practice.

Not really. The majority of BJJ players do not compete.
But in wrestling no one would train and not compete.

Fair enough. Thanks.
 
Um, wrestling has pee-wee, middle school, high school, and college. High school has 14 weight classes. College has 10. In college, you have NCWA, NAIA, and NCAA Divisions 1, 2, and 3. There are 50 states in high school, from Pennsylvania to Alabama. In each of those states, there are multiple divisions depending on school size. Virginia has 6, for instance. Now in international wrestling, you have 6 Olympic weights and 8 non-Olympic weight classes. 12 and 16 when you consider both Freestyle and Greco. 6 more when you add in women's freestyle. There is a Veterans World Championship for older competitors.

It's disingenuous to conflate folkstyle and freestyle. If you can do that for wrestling, you might as well consider BJJ and Judo together for gi grappling.

In BJJ, some average Joe can enter an IBJJF event, GQ, or NAGA, and compete against the best in the sport and others. For instance, I remember Phil Davis (NCAA Division 1 Champion) competing at BLUE BELT IBJJF worlds.

There are plenty of ways to save your ego in both sports.

holt bro, you got your ass owned :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:
 
Where the fuck did you pop up?

I call troll. No one's possibly this ignant and stupid.

good-job-retard.jpg
 
Just to recap, in this thread: A BJJ black belt, Worlds medalist and former Division I wrestler who is personally vouched for by David The Rock Jacobs... gets shitted on by deadlizard, who has been posting on this forum a long time, you know.
 
Just to recap, in this thread: A BJJ black belt, Worlds medalist and former Division I wrestler who is personally vouched for by David The Rock Jacobs... gets shitted on by deadlizard, who has been posting on this forum a long time, you know.

hmmm.. if you put it like that....
 
Hard training, necessity to be in physically good shape, focus on competition, injuries happening everywhere, the necessity to dedicate a shit ton of hours to train, etc.

If you were in your 30s/40s and wanted to start training a martial art what would you choose?
The art that allows you to start without being in great condition, that you can train without worrying about competing if you do not want to, the one that you are almost sure to spend a very long time without getting injuries, the one that you go there 2-3 times a week to train allowing you to go to your job and to spend time with friends or family or the art that requires you the exact opposite of all that.
 
We are talking about adults, not kids. Is there veterans? Yes, they wrestle a once a year domestic tournament; thats it.

I am comparing adult male wrestling to adult male BJJ. I will concede, you can wrestle either freestyle or greco, so that makes 6 weights, 2 styles. 12 categories. But, you can also compete in gi/nogi jiujitsu. Compare that to IBJJF which has white, blue, purple, brown, black, 9 weight classes, adult division, then masters 1-5, and double it for gi/nogi. Not an exaggeration, that is 540 divisions and weights to compete in compared to 12. Which one is going to be more difficult to deal with in terms of preserving ego? Not sure how you can argue this.

I don't consider NCAA athletes to be kids. They're 18+ young adults in supreme athletic condition. If anything, THEY have egos to preserve. So the various divisions of NCAA wrestling should be admitted in this discussion, since the divisions are sort of equivalent to belts.

IBJJF is a for profit competition, where you pay money to compete. Its in the best interest of IBJJF to create as many categories as possible to get as many people to compete as possible. Its not ego, its about practicality. If there were no age categories, there is no way a 40 year old family man is going to pay $100 to compete against a 20 year old career bjj kid. That isn't ego, its the 40 year old being smart and not giving his money away.

The IBJJF Adult age are the "pro" categories. They're the kids training full time, dropping out of high school and shit. Even then, its really the blackbelts that anyone really cares about. Everything else are basically hobbyists with families and lives that want to get more than 1 match for their $100 entrance fee. You want to compare apples-to-apples, compare the adult blackbelts to wrestling. Or ADCC to wrestling.

If anything, I argue that wrestling doesn't have the age categories that BJJ has because nobody older than 30 wants to competitively wrestle, so there is simply no market for it. Its not because wrestlers are somehow more humble about losing.
 
I don't consider NCAA athletes to be kids. They're 18+ young adults in supreme athletic condition. If anything, THEY have egos to preserve. So the various divisions of NCAA wrestling should be admitted in this discussion, since the divisions are sort of equivalent to belts.

IBJJF is a for profit competition, where you pay money to compete. Its in the best interest of IBJJF to create as many categories as possible to get as many people to compete as possible. Its not ego, its about practicality. If there were no age categories, there is no way a 40 year old family man is going to pay $100 to compete against a 20 year old career bjj kid. That isn't ego, its the 40 year old being smart and not giving his money away.

The IBJJF Adult age are the "pro" categories. They're the kids training full time, dropping out of high school and shit. Even then, its really the blackbelts that anyone really cares about. Everything else are basically hobbyists with families and lives that want to get more than 1 match for their $100 entrance fee. You want to compare apples-to-apples, compare the adult blackbelts to wrestling. Or ADCC to wrestling.

If anything, I argue that wrestling doesn't have the age categories that BJJ has because nobody older than 30 wants to competitively wrestle, so there is simply no market for it. Its not because wrestlers are somehow more humble about losing.

Great points.

In my experience at least, egos are destroyed within your first month of Division I wrestling.

Divisions II and III, as well as NAIA and even NCWA have hammers in them too. There are kids that for academic or other reasons are not suited for Division II, but their athletic and technical abilities are right up there with the best of them.

In terms of why a lot of people don't continue wrestling after college, this article really hits home:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...fc0144-0b6d-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html
 
Great points.

In my experience at least, egos are destroyed within your first month of Division I wrestling.

Divisions II and III, as well as NAIA and even NCWA have hammers in them too. There are kids that for academic or other reasons are not suited for Division II, but their athletic and technical abilities are right up there with the best of them.

In terms of why a lot of people don't continue wrestling after college, this article really hits home:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...fc0144-0b6d-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

Its true, but compare IBJJF to lets say NCAA division I. What do you think would happen to IBJJF tournament numbers if they only offered 1 skill division per weight? Your numbers would probably fall by 75% or more.

Why is this? Nothing to do with physicality. Wrestling does not offer divisions to coddle weaker adult egos, BJJ does. Sometimes I wonder whether wrestling's tunnel vision is a help or a hinderance to its survival.
 
Its true, but compare IBJJF to lets say NCAA division I. What do you think would happen to IBJJF tournament numbers if they only offered 1 skill division per weight? Your numbers would probably fall by 75% or more.

Why is this? Nothing to do with physicality. Wrestling does not offer divisions to coddle weaker adult egos, BJJ does. Sometimes I wonder whether wrestling's tunnel vision is a help or a hinderance to its survival.

What would happen to college wrestling numbers if they combined all the divisions? The same thing if there was only 1 skill division per weight at IBJJF events, per your example. Numbers would drop. If you tell a lot of NAIA or D3 wrestlers who have restrictions on the number of hours they can practice per week that now they have to compete against Penn State and Iowa, people are going to drop off.

IBJJF offers more divisions for adults because BJJ has astronomically more competitors aged 22-34 and above. Admittedly, this is also a business decision.

It's absolutely asinine to suggest that some 45 year old tax accountant or 22 year old blue belt who has been training for 2 years and who trains 3x a week competes in the blue belt or Seniors divisions to "coddle his weaker adult ego."
 
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What would happen to college wrestling numbers if they combined all the divisions? The same thing if there was only 1 skill division per weight at IBJJF events, per your example. Numbers would drop. If you tell a lot of NAIA or D3 wrestlers who have restrictions on the number of hours they can practice per week that now they have to compete against Penn State and Iowa, people are going to drop off.

IBJJF offers more divisions for adults because BJJ has astronomically more competitors aged 22-34 and above. Admittedly, this is also a business decision.

It's absolutely asinine to suggest that some 45 year old tax accountant or 22 year old blue belt who has been training for 2 years and who trains 3x a week competes in the blue belt or Seniors divisions to "coddle his weaker adult ego."

NAIA/other college divisions are not counted in, just like I didnt include GQ, FiveGrappling, or NAGA in with IBJJF. If you want to do it that way, the numbers skew even further towards divisional watering down.

The competitors are not the ones coddling the ego, the tournament directors are, so that they can make more money. This is the main reason why adults dont wrestle past highschool unless they are very serious competitors. Are you telling me that its asinine to think that most adult level blue belt belts training 2 years would not compete if they were forced to compete with black belts? Its assinine to think hardly anyone would pay 130 bucks to get thrown in with serious upper belt level competitors.
 
NAIA/other college divisions are not counted in, just like I didnt include GQ, FiveGrappling, or NAGA in with IBJJF. If you want to do it that way, the numbers skew even further towards divisional watering down.

The competitors are not the ones coddling the ego, the tournament directors are, so that they can make more money. This is the main reason why adults dont wrestle past highschool unless they are very serious competitors. Are you telling me that its asinine to think that most adult level blue belt belts training 2 years would not compete if they were forced to compete with black belts? Its assinine to think hardly anyone would pay 130 bucks to get thrown in with serious upper belt level competitors.

Again, how many active senior level free and greco wrestlers are there in the United States? 80? 100?

How many division 1 programs do we have now? 80? So with 10 weight classes, that is 800 NCAA D1 wrestlers total?

Compare that to thousands and thousands of 18-29 year old BJJ players. Single adult blue belt divisions at Mundials might have up to 100 people.

People start and do BJJ from age 5-75, probably an even wider spectrum than that. Wrestling people start from 5-15 and maybe compete until they are 18 or 22, with only a tiny percentage going on after that.

Apples to oranges.

I'm not arguing with your point that less people would compete. I just take issue with the chip on your shoulder that you seem to have in thinking that the only reason anyone competes in any division or why tournaments offer any other division than adult black belt is to protect egos.

Is it at least in part to make money? Sure. But there are issues like limited training time, injuries, and other things that go into it. I have met plenty of people in BJJ that have never wrestled before, but have no egos and are just as tough as anyone I ever met in college wrestling.
 
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Learning to wrestle (in America) is miserable. You do it for the personal satisfaction of being able to withstand and even excel in the grind of it. It is immensley demanding on mind and body and most people would not want to pay for that and do all the rigorous training that goes with it. It works best with people who started as school age kids because the coach can scream at you, tell you what to do, and demand stuff out of you. Now imagine your 30+, working full time, maybe have a family, a ton of responsibilities, and your paying for someone to put you through hell? For what? Its not the best art for most people to defend themselves in the street, and there are WAY moreefficient ways to look good. It just dont make sense for most.
 
I'm not arguing with your point that less people would compete. I just take issue with the chip on your shoulder that you seem to have in thinking that the only reason anyone competes in any division or why tournaments offer any other division than adult black belt is to protect egos.

Dont put words into my mouth or twist what I said in any way to fit your argument. I never said the only reason why people compete in BJJ is to protect egos. The fact that you interpreted it like that shows you already have an agenda and it isnt to take an opinion at face value.

Here is what I did say: BJJ has divisions to protect weaker players from strong players, to protect their ego. Why? Because no one would compete if they knew there was a strong chance of them getting their ass kicked. This is why tournaments will offer 5 divisions per 9 weights in 7 adult age categories. If you dont want to call that protecting the ego of competitors so that they will be more inclined to compete, what would you call it?
 
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