Why are some Christians so hateful to the idea of socialism,? But love Laissez faire capitalism?

IDL said:
Depends on what argument you are making obviously, but I have no problem with studies like that (assuming it was done in a neutral way, which is very difficult). It's usually the conclusions that people draw from studies that get wacky.
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I don't really think it matters what argument you are making. Whatever your argument is it should rest, ideally, not on one study but on many different studies with different methodologies that balance out the flaws and limitations of one another.
 
Kafir-kun said:
I don't really think it matters what argument you are making. Whatever your argument is it should rest, ideally, not on one study but on many different studies with different methodologies that balance out the flaws and limitations of one another.
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Yes absolutely
 
Because they are "Christians". Jesus very clearly said not to amass wealth but to give all excess to the poor. These "Christians" are at least as greedy as the rest of us but add the hypocrisy of calling themselves as followers of his teachings.

The very notion that we have lots of extravagant churches is one of the most ironic things in this world.
 
Kafir-kun said:
I don't necessarily think so. I believe Marx himself thought Britain would've been a good candidate for a transition to communism because it was more democratic than other European countries. The problem is that communism is a radical solution and radical solutions are hard to implement in democracies were the give and take of politics tends to water down proposals and make them agreeable to as many people as possible and getting rid of private property would malign many.

So communism tends to sprout up in highly unequal and autocratic societies during crisis periods and those periods are very precarious and can lead into very dark places as we saw with the Russian Revolution.
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Compare East Germany to West Germany or North Korea to South Korea. Compare Maoist China to China after they made the necessary market reforms. Compare Venezuela before and after socialism. It's failed every single time. People need to stop putting ideology ahead of reality.
 
SouthoftheAndes said:
https://videosift.com/blog/jwray/20-reasons-jesus-was-a-communist-pacifist-tax-and-spend-liberal


I think Christian Univerialism and Christian communism are in fact noble and closer to original Christianity than many of today's forms.


I am curious as to why some American right wing Christians are often 'racist' and often very 'fuck government' and fuck anything that can help anyone. To me these people are brainwashed and being misled by greedy capitalists and oligarchs.


Thoughts? I am mostly interested in what secular, agnostics and atheist and (irreligious) people who study religion attribute it to. Because Christians who do irrationally hate socialism will only give me a spin story about how 'evil' communism and socialism are. And then typically it is something like this


"Something something something communism is evil!! marxism!!! Soviet Union!!! millions dead!!! gun control!!!! Mao zedong!!!! somethjing something something Reagan is a God!!1 Calvin Coolidge was a GOD!!! The Rockefellers and are just free market capitalists, and are good!!!The Koch brothers are fighting for justice!! something something something!!"

https://videosift.com/blog/jwray/20-reasons-jesus-was-a-communist-pacifist-tax-and-spend-liberal
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its because theyve been packaged for easy political consumption. identity politics is your answer. and its not limited to the right.
 
Squarechoke said:
Because they are "Christians". Jesus very clearly said not to amass wealth but to give all excess to the poor. These "Christians" are at least as greedy as the rest of us but add the hypocrisy of calling themselves as followers of his teachings.

The very notion that we have lots of extravagant churches is one of the most ironic things in this world.
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You don't think it has anything to do with the fact in regions that tried full blown communism the Christians and other religious groups were sent to "re-education" camps?
 
Jackie Blue said:
Compare East Germany to West Germany or North Korea to South Korea. Compare Maoist China to China after they made the necessary market reforms. Compare Venezuela before and after socialism. It's failed every single time. People need to stop putting ideology ahead of reality.
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Norway has socialist measures and has for sometime. Their oil resources are owned by the state and thus democratically managed. That's an instance of the ownership of the means of production being seized by the "workers"(or people more generally since the state reflects their will) where it didn't go off the rails.
 
Gregolian said:
You don't think it has anything to do with the fact in regions that tried full blown communism the Christians and other religious groups were sent to "re-education" camps?
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No, that makes no sense to me. The message from Jesus is clearly that you should not be greedy but instead give all excess you have to the poor. You don't turn away from that because some people with a supposed such agenda (but it was of course not the case since they people never got the power, they were ruled under dictators), just as they didn't turn away from Christianity just because some rulers (including the powerful position of the church here) did crazy non-Christian things in the name of the religion in the past.
 
DannyNL said:
And hopefully it stays that way.
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Until it's been implemented how can we truly know?

If we analyze the root causes or crime, drug addiction, lack of education, under-employment, etc.. the largest component in all these problems is economic struggle. The laws that are set up in modern society protect the wealthy and widen the capital disparity.

I'd argue that an educated populace that doesn't have to accumulate large debts is a good start to alleviate the cycle.
 
Because Capitalism rises more people out of poverty than any other system ever tried by mankind.

Get educated before even talking about Socialism.

 
The only government that is outlined in the New Testament is one that Punishes the Evil and upholds/ defends the Good. That's it, that's all. And Government should never usurp the role of parents, per the founding fathers.

Be a good citizen. All governments are under God. Insofar as there is peace and order, it’s God’s order. So live responsibly as a citizen. If you’re irresponsible to the state, then you’re irresponsible with God, and God will hold you responsible. Duly constituted authorities are only a threat if you’re trying to get by with something. Decent citizens should have nothing to fear.

3-5 Do you want to be on good terms with the government? Be a responsible citizen and you’ll get on just fine, the government working to your advantage. But if you’re breaking the rules right and left, watch out. The police aren’t there just to be admired in their uniforms. God also has an interest in keeping order, and he uses them to do it. That’s why you must live responsibly—not just to avoid punishment but also because it’s the right way to live. Romans 13


That being said, I believe there is some wiggle room as far as "liberal/conservative". I lean conservative. But I have a parent on SSI. If Paul Ryan guts it Ill be ticked. That's different though. Atleast people worked to pay into it. Jesus didn't live to be the founder of a new governing philosophy per se. He lived to 1) Bring us relationship to God and 2) Conform us into his likeness.
I mean this in the nicest way I can- Why do liberals occasionally throw in a "Jesus was a refugee!" or " Jesus would have been a socialist!" but at the same time fight to remove Jesus and the people who actually show some genuine faith in the man from the public square so often? I don't get it.

Other than that- my instinct is that the Communist vision gets off on the wrong foot with the whole atheist part of it.
 
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lukaswithelidof said:
The only government that is outlined in the New Testament is one that Punishes the Evil and upholds/ defends the Good. That's it, that's all. And Government should never usurp the role of parents, per the founding fathers.

Be a good citizen. All governments are under God. Insofar as there is peace and order, it’s God’s order. So live responsibly as a citizen. If you’re irresponsible to the state, then you’re irresponsible with God, and God will hold you responsible. Duly constituted authorities are only a threat if you’re trying to get by with something. Decent citizens should have nothing to fear.

3-5 Do you want to be on good terms with the government? Be a responsible citizen and you’ll get on just fine, the government working to your advantage. But if you’re breaking the rules right and left, watch out. The police aren’t there just to be admired in their uniforms. God also has an interest in keeping order, and he uses them to do it. That’s why you must live responsibly—not just to avoid punishment but also because it’s the right way to live. Romans 13


That being said, I believe there is some wiggle room as far as "liberal/conservative". I lean conservative. But I have a parent on SSI. If Paul Ryan guts it Ill be ticked. That's different though. Atleast people worked to pay into it. Jesus didn't live to be the founder of a new governing philosophy per se. He lived to 1) Bring us relationship to God and 2) Conform us into his likeness.
I mean this in the nicest way I can- Why do liberals occasionally throw in a "Jesus was a refugee!" or " Jesus would have been a socialist!" but at the same time fight to remove Jesus and the people who actually show some genuine faith in the man from the public square so often? I don't get it.

Other than that- my instinct is that the Communist vision gets off on the wrong foot with the whole atheist part of it.
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You back?
 
lukaswithelidof said:
The only government that is outlined in the New Testament is one that Punishes the Evil and upholds/ defends the Good. That's it, that's all. And Government should never usurp the role of parents, per the founding fathers.

Be a good citizen. All governments are under God. Insofar as there is peace and order, it’s God’s order. So live responsibly as a citizen. If you’re irresponsible to the state, then you’re irresponsible with God, and God will hold you responsible. Duly constituted authorities are only a threat if you’re trying to get by with something. Decent citizens should have nothing to fear.

3-5 Do you want to be on good terms with the government? Be a responsible citizen and you’ll get on just fine, the government working to your advantage. But if you’re breaking the rules right and left, watch out. The police aren’t there just to be admired in their uniforms. God also has an interest in keeping order, and he uses them to do it. That’s why you must live responsibly—not just to avoid punishment but also because it’s the right way to live. Romans 13


That being said, I believe there is some wiggle room as far as "liberal/conservative". I lean conservative. But I have a parent on SSI. If Paul Ryan guts it Ill be ticked. That's different though. Atleast people worked to pay into it. Jesus didn't live to be the founder of a new governing philosophy per se. He lived to 1) Bring us relationship to God and 2) Conform us into his likeness.
I mean this in the nicest way I can- Why do liberals occasionally throw in a "Jesus was a refugee!" or " Jesus would have been a socialist!" but at the same time fight to remove Jesus and the people who actually show some genuine faith in the man from the public square so often? I don't get it.

Other than that- my instinct is that the Communist vision gets off on the wrong foot with the whole atheist part of it.
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It's important to remember that the book of Acts describes the Apostles and the first believers as operating under a voluntary communal society. They shared their wealth and distributed it to those in need as they saw fit.

Of course we need to be careful how far we extrapolate this model, because such harmony is really only viable when your tribe is small enough to where you know and trust everyone. Not to mention that this was entirely separate from Government and politics, it was charity and community in it's purest form, and most importantly, it was voluntary.

People who point to Jesus to argue for their political party, especially when they don't believe in Jesus, will not get my attention, nor do they deserve it. Not to mention that these guys will reject every other tenet he espouses, including the straight forward message of personal responsibility. Let's not forget: For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: ‘The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.’
 
dontsnitch said:
It's important to remember that the book of Acts describes the Apostles and the first believers as operating under a voluntary communal society. They shared their wealth and distributed it to those in need as they saw fit.

Of course we need to be careful how far we extrapolate this model, because such harmony is really only viable when your tribe is small enough to where you know and trust everyone. Not to mention that this was entirely separate from Government and politics, it was charity and community in it's purest form, and most importantly, it was voluntary.

People who point to Jesus to argue for their political party, especially when they don't believe in Jesus, will not get my attention, nor do they deserve it. Not to mention that these guys will reject every other tenet he espouses, including the straight forward message of personal responsibility. Let's not forget: For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: ‘The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.’
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Oh yea. I love that qoute from St. Paul. I could talk about this all night and enjoy it. The main thing i wanted to articulate was as far as what I can nail down a " thus sayth the Lord" for Government its that one place and the principles are many from other places in the N.T. I agree , the early believers described in Acts were not a model of government and people of poor character need to suffer for it. I agree thats a Godly principle, and effective at rejuvenating character as Paul hinted lol
 
lukaswithelidof said:
Oh yea. I love that qoute from St. Paul. I could talk about this all night and enjoy it. The main thing i wanted to articulate was as far as what I can nail down a " thus sayth the Lord" for Government its that one place and the principles are many from other places in the N.T. I agree , the early believers described in Acts were not a model of government and people of poor character need to suffer for it. I agree thats a Godly principle, and effective at rejuvenating character as Paul hinted lol
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That's just it, it wasn't meant as a model of government. Which is why it's ironic that you see atheists point to Jesus to argue for a political system, but they cherry pick this one thing and throw everything else out the window. For instance, how many people that argue that Jesus would be a socialist would also accept that Jesus would not agree with SSM, or homosexuality for that matter? Nope, they just want to use Christ for this one point and then shove him back in the box, and everyone sees this and rightfully points it out.
 
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