Why are leftist Jews so conservative when it comes to Israel ?

[Possum Jenkins]

Some of the strongest voices against Zionism are Jewish (Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Glenn Greenwald, Naomi Klein, & many more), whereas the most rabidly and blindly pro-Israel groups in America tend to be anglo saxon protestants from the south. Lets not paint with a broad brush.

Finkelstein has researched this for decades and in his estimation, about 1/3 of Jews support Israeli aggression and expansion, 1/3 are apolitical, and 1/3 against it. The pro side is slowly shrinking though.

It's all manufactured though. Prior to 1967, American Jews largely couldn't give a shit about Israel. But starting then, deliberate attempts were made to tie Jewish-ness to support of Israeli aggression. It worked. US Jews are more Jewish than many Israeli Jews.

He breaks it down nicely here:

 

[Oiler]

.[/QUOTE]

because now the reason is protecting Israeli citizens in the West Bank who are clearly a vulnerable population. Its a farcical circular logic, Israeli citizens wouldn't need protecting if they didn't steal the land from the Palestinians.

.

But isnt the reason israel took the land in the first place for protection?

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Yeah, cause no sane person can ever come to a conclusion that supporting a democracy might be better than support Islamic Terrorism.

the line drawn between state sponsored murder and terrorism is pretty hypocritical.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Wow, this is the most ignorant post I've seen so far.
Israel is a country of immigrants you dumbass, it's a mixture of all kinds of different cultures, it's the last thing you can say about the country.

so is america. that doesnt mean there arent serious issues with racism.

 

[trident]

Dersh isn't a leftist.

 

[carlos cadona]

Thinly veiled Jew hate conspiracy thread.

 

[moosaev]

But isnt the reason israel took the land in the first place for protection?.

The most generous argument you can make is that Israel *initially* took the land for protection, but not against the Palestinians but against Jordan. There is currently no security justification whatsoever for keeping the West Bank. Its a naked land grab don't let anybody fool you.

What sticks in my craw is that my tax dollars are subsidizing that land theft. And when me and my countrymen who feel similarly aggrieved point this out the anti-Semite card gets quickly thrown out. I've never before seen a more perverse exploitation of anti-Semitism or the holocaust as the Israeli propaganda machine engages to silence criticism.

 

[Oiler]

The most generous argument you can make is that Israel *initially* took the land for protection against Jordan. There is currently no security justification whatsoever for keeping the West Bank. Its a naked land grab don't let anybody fool you.

What sticks in my craw is that my tax dollars are subsidizing that land theft. And when me and my countrymen who feel similarly aggrieved point this out the anti-Semite card gets quickly thrown out. I've never before seen a more perverse exploitation of anti-Semitism or the holocaust as the Israeli propaganda machine engages to silence criticism.

Well, when did it stop being needed for protection, exactly? And, assuming it was once needed for protection (but on day xxx magically was no longer needed for this purpose) who is to say it wouldnt be needed once again in the future?

I dont think what you have said so far makes you an antisemite.....its hard for jewish people (like me) because there are many anti semites that do express the same views.

 

[moosaev]

Well, when did it stop being needed for protection, exactly? And, assuming it was once needed for protection (but on day xxx magically was no longer needed for this purpose) who is to say it wouldnt be needed once again in the future?

I dont think what you have said so far makes you an antisemite.....its hard for jewish people (like me) because there are many anti semites that do express the same views.

It stopped being needed for protection when there was no longer an existential threat of a coordinated conventional land attack from Israel's Arab neighbors. Those days are long gone for many reasons, foremost being that Israel is a nuclear power.

Israel is one of the strongest nations on earth militarily, they have COMPLETE domination of the Palestinians. And when I say complete, I mean they have gone so far as to cultivate spies and turncoats amongst the Palestinians (usually through extortion after catching someone in a homosexual act, or stealing state funds, etc.) and have perfected the art sowing discord to divide and rule the populace. Not a lot of people know that Hamas was initially propped up and supported by Israel in order to weaken the PLO.

I say this all to get to my point,...Palestinians are not a security threat to the degree that requires occupation because they are a subjugated people and Israel is a strong power. But the occupation is a necessary step for Israel's real objective, ensuring the West Bank (or as much of it as possible) is part of greater Israel. The USA, to our eternal shame, is complicit in this illegal and immoral objective.

 

[tramendous]

Finkelstein has researched this for decades and in his estimation, about 1/3 of Jews support Israeli aggression and expansion, 1/3 are apolitical, and 1/3 against it. The pro side is slowly shrinking though.

i'm not sure its shrinking fast enough. decades from now or even a century, the palestinians will have their 'wounded knee' and when the israelis have taken everything they will wallow in some type of guilt the way americans do about native indians. They won't give them their homes back though.

 

[j123]

Must be antisemitism day in the war room. Someone should keep track of it so we know what day of the week it is. We should map out the weeks better.

Sunday: Church

Monday: The Jews Control The World

Tuesday: Shit On Black People Time

Wednesday: Liberalism is a Mental Disease Day

Thursday: Trannys should Poop in The Mens Room Discussion

Friday: Climate Change is Fake and Flat Earth is Real Group Talk

Saturday: Muslims Are All Terrorists Playtime

lol

There are alot of topics, you might have to split the days in half to cover everything, maybe even quarterly.

 

[Darkballs]

This is not a conspiracy, it is out there front and center.

The real question is "what did jews ever do to force you to come the war room and create so many shit threads?"

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

Finkelstein has researched this for decades and in his estimation, about 1/3 of Jews support Israeli aggression and expansion, 1/3 are apolitical, and 1/3 against it. The pro side is slowly shrinking though.

It's all manufactured though. Prior to 1967, American Jews largely couldn't give a shit about Israel. But starting then, deliberate attempts were made to tie Jewish-ness to support of Israeli aggression. It worked. US Jews are more Jewish than many Israeli Jews.

He breaks it down nicely here:

I am not so sure that is true. Israeli Jews seem more religious as a collective whole than American Jews, and the data seems to support that conclusion. Even the large amount of Hilonim (Secular Israeli Jews) are more observant and believing in God than many Reform Jews.

And Israeli Jewish youths are more religious than their parents and the Israeli youth who are religious is growing while the Jewish youth numbers decrease and their religiousness or Jewish identity diminishes.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.707583

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

Well, when did it stop being needed for protection, exactly? And, assuming it was once needed for protection (but on day xxx magically was no longer needed for this purpose) who is to say it wouldnt be needed once again in the future?

I dont think what you have said so far makes you an antisemite.....its hard for jewish people (like me) because there are many anti semites that do express the same views.

Let's be honest here.

How many other nations in the world would give back land they rightfully conquered after having been attacked?

What other nation would remove it's citizens from lands it rightfully conquered in a war it won but did not start?

Answer: I can't think of any except Israel that has done just that.

The desire by some Zionists to have the west bank entirely or even just half of it isn't some monstrous evil thought or ideology. Rather it is a logical and a rather rational thinking, that is typical of nationalist or revionists history. For instance you can find similar sentiments echoed in China and Russia and many other countries. Nationalists wanting to retake lands their people used to occupy.


The bigger thing we need to look at is fairness. Why is it Arabs and Muslims can have so much land and do whatever they want in their countries but Israel can't have a little bit of land that rightfully and historically belongs to it?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Call it whatever you want but it is very clear from your post that hate Jews.
I'm not saying it's wrong or anything, you can hate whoever you like. It's just that you act like a little bitch and trying to somehow mask it.

You sound like the typical zionist / Israel sympathiser that smugly replies "we get it, you hate Jews" at almost everything.

Usually I don't feed trolls but I'll bite, assuming that you are interested in an intelligent discussion: your conclusion is wrong.

I have nothing about Jews individually. Why would I ?

But on the other hand, why would I have to feel any sympathy for any kind of organisation/association of people that tends to segregate itself from the mainstream and do its thing in some kind of a parallel society ? Why would I have to like someone who thinks that even though he has the same passport as me and was born in the same country as me, that his "real" nation is somewhere at the end of the world and the he is a chosen people, unlike me ?

So obviously all Jews don't think like that, that's why I have nothing against Jews.

But I see absolutely no reason to like jewish associations. People who join them are ipso facto, very exclusive and exclude me.

Oh and before you call me an anti-semite again, I would say the same thing for calvinists, buddhists or ancient greek polytheists.

Just as much as they have the right to proclaim that they are different from me, I have the right to not like them precisely for that.

I am a Catholic, but I would tend to hate an extreme secret society Opus Dei Catholic while I could be best friends with a Jew that identifies with the same values as mine.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

You guys should expel all Jews from your countries, take away all the money they stole from you, put them in gas chambers and drop a nuclear bomb on Israel.
That would solve all of your problems, the world will be a better place.

Oh I see.

I hadn't read that post. And it seems like most of your posts are in the same spirit. Maybe I was wrong to assume that I can have an intelligent conversation with you.

 

[nefti]

It's typical "limousine liberal" attitude, that they don't want to sacrifice anything but everyone else must.

 

[Oiler]

It stopped being needed for protection when there was no longer an existential threat of a coordinated conventional land attack from Israel's Arab neighbors. Those days are long gone for many reasons, foremost being that Israel is a nuclear power.

Israel is one of the strongest nations on earth militarily, they have COMPLETE domination of the Palestinians. And when I say complete, I mean they have gone so far as to cultivate spies and turncoats amongst the Palestinians (usually through extortion after catching someone in a homosexual act, or stealing state funds, etc.) and have perfected the art sowing discord to divide and rule the populace. Not a lot of people know that Hamas was initially propped up and supported by Israel in order to weaken the PLO.

I say this all to get to my point,...Palestinians are not a security threat to the degree that requires occupation because they are a subjugated people and Israel is a strong power. But the occupation is a necessary step for Israel's real objective, ensuring the West Bank (or as much of it as possible) is part of greater Israel. The USA, to our eternal shame, is complicit in this illegal and immoral objective.

If they used nukes they would risk getting nuked themselves

And Why does it need to be a "coordinated" attack? How about being concerned with an attack from just jordan? Anyway they signed a treaty with jorda. in 94' after which israel has offered huge portions of the west bank back....does that count for anything? And how do you ensure cessation of terror attacks if you leave the west bank?

i will concede that for some its just a land grab, i will concede that new settlements should stop, but to blame israel for everything ignores the history and current problems in my view.

 

[moosaev]

If they used nukes they would risk getting nuked themselves

Of course, which is why they're safe from any state directed existential attack. The concept of MAD (mutually assured destruction) still applies here. If they find themselves in a true existential crisis that would free them to use nukes, any would be attacker would know this.

And Why does it need to be a "coordinated" attack? How about being concerned with an attack from just jordan? Anyway they signed a treaty with jorda. in 94' after which israel has offered huge portions of the west bank back....does that count for anything? And how do you ensure cessation of terror attacks if you leave the west bank?

You're proving my point further. Israel and Jordan are on friendly terms, furthermore, Israel can destroy the Jordanian military within a matter of days. A hypothetical attack from Jordan is not a credible threat. That's like the US making policy decisions on the basis of possible attack from Mexico.

And how do you ensure cessation of terror attacks if you leave the west bank?

If Israel withdraws from the West Bank (true withdrawal, not sanctions and blockades) then terror attacks will cease to become a realistic threat. Simply because the Palestinians powers that be would have too much to lose at that point. Least of which is their credibility.

And supposing they do launch attacks, Israel still has the power to EASILY re-occupy, annex, whatever they want with the West Bank. The "threat of terror" is a total smokescreen for the occupation, they want the land.

i will concede that for some its just a land grab, i will concede that new settlements should stop, but to blame israel for everything ignores the history and current problems in my view.

I didn't say Israel deserves all the blame. They do deserve the lion's share, because they are stealing another people's land today (not in 1948, 67, or 73). Historical context only takes you so far,.. how long can Israel rehash regional aggression toward's them as an excuse for this blatant moral wrong?

Furthermore, the Palestinians suffer every day from their mistakes. And not just the leaders, regular citizens bear the brunt of their national mistakes. Israelis on the other hand are not suffering from their mistakes,...because the US has been protecting them. Its time for a re-balance which includes UN resolutions, sanctions, etc. Maybe if the regular folks in Tel Aviv & Haifa can start feeling the International anger from the occupation Israel will come to their senses and end the occupation.

 

[moosaev]

Let's be honest here.

How many other nations in the world would give back land they rightfully conquered after having been attacked?

What other nation would remove it's citizens from lands it rightfully conquered in a war it won but did not start?

Answer: I can't think of any except Israel that has done just that.

The desire by some Zionists to have the west bank entirely or even just half of it isn't some monstrous evil thought or ideology. Rather it is a logical and a rather rational thinking, that is typical of nationalist or revionists history. For instance you can find similar sentiments echoed in China and Russia and many other countries. Nationalists wanting to retake lands their people used to occupy.


The bigger thing we need to look at is fairness. Why is it Arabs and Muslims can have so much land and do whatever they want in their countries but Israel can't have a little bit of land that rightfully and historically belongs to it?

If you're ok with invading and annexing territories that don't belong to you, that's fine. But don't expect other countries to like it or accept it. The problem is Israel wants to be a legitimate and respected member of the democratic world community while also engaging in nationalistic and chauvinistic behavior. Don't bitch when you start feeling the consequences of your actions.