Who's the 3rd GOAT behind Jordan and LeBron?

faustian said:
iirc like 5 years ago I foresaw LeBitch eventually ending up at #2

My top 3, based on what I've seen with my own eyes, are:

MJ
LeBrick
Hakeem

Take any 2 of those 3, put them on the same team, and they besmirch any team in NBA history
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Lol Shaq and Kobe would have something to say about that.

Man these threads are hilarious, bunch of unathletic haters talking in absolutes, putting LolBron at #1, #2 and #3?? Wtf... what happened to having WINNERS at the top.

There is a reason Hakeem isn't in the top 10 and it's because he isn't a winner like the others. Hakeem only won because Jordan went to baseball. Once he cameback, back to the end of the line Hakeem.

TOP 10 ALL TIME
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Big O
Duncan
Russell

Hakeem perennially stuck at #11

@gspieler @iwhoopedbatman stfuuuuuuu
 
Palis said:
Lol Shaq and Kobe would have something to say about that.

Man these threads are hilarious, bunch of unathletic haters talking in absolutes, putting LolBron at #1, #2 and #3?? Wtf... what happened to having WINNERS at the top.

There is a reason Hakeem isn't in the top 10 and it's because he isn't a winner like the others. Hakeem only won because Jordan went to baseball. Once he cameback, back to the end of the line Hakeem.

TOP 10 ALL TIME
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Big O
Duncan
Russell

Hakeem perennially stuck at #11

@gspieler @iwhoopedbatman stfuuuuuuu
Click to expand...

I don't see the argument for hoe Big O is above Lebron at this point, although they're not far apart. Also, having Kobe at 5 and Lebron not even making top 11 is perplexing. What's your rationale for that?
 
Palis said:
Lol Shaq and Kobe would have something to say about that.

Man these threads are hilarious, bunch of unathletic haters talking in absolutes, putting LolBron at #1, #2 and #3?? Wtf... what happened to having WINNERS at the top.

There is a reason Hakeem isn't in the top 10 and it's because he isn't a winner like the others. Hakeem only won because Jordan went to baseball. Once he cameback, back to the end of the line Hakeem.

TOP 10 ALL TIME
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Big O
Duncan
Russell

Hakeem perennially stuck at #11

@gspieler @iwhoopedbatman stfuuuuuuu
Click to expand...
lol at it being all about winning but Wilt is top 4 and Big O top ten. Combined they have the same number of rings as Bern.
 
gspieler said:
I don't see the argument for hoe Big O is above Lebron at this point, although they're not far apart. Also, having Kobe at 5 and Lebron not even making top 11 is perplexing. What's your rationale for that?
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Paris is a longtime Laker fan who, like BD, likes to pretend Bern is a can.
 
iwhoopedbatman said:
Paris is a longtime Laker fan who, like BD, likes to pretend Bern is a can.
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I assumed he was a Lakes guy. I can understand the argument for Bern and Kobe being more-or-less equal on the all-time spectrum. I can understand the argument for Bern being a notch ahead of Kobe. Since 2016 Finals, though, I don't understand the argument that Kobe is still clearly ahead of Bern in terms of legacy. Bern has the stats, accolades, and longevity to at least put him on par with Kobe. I would still argue Kobe s slightly ahead on intangibles, but even then Bern has established himself in every other facet, relative to Kobe.

Personally, I have Bern as fringe top 5, and Kobe as fringe top 10(at least until @Breakitdown besmirches my F-level pseudo-analytics with his A-level, top-of-the-food-chain, intellectually superior analysis of the two).

Also, list needs more Jerry West if we're going full-blown Lakes.
 
syct23 said:
Weak division... LeBron has played in within his career.

Who has he actually had to beat to get to the championships.? Only real threat were the Celtics and he couldn't beat them until he left to Miami to get some help.
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Meaningless when he beat a 73-9 team, down 3-1 in the finals. Led in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, not just leading his own team, but leading the Warriors team, as well.

He is GOAT, and was GOAT even before that series.
 
faustian said:
Of course, of all my generic NBA threads to make it through the software change, my actual substantive threads (NBA Science Thread, Top 50 PFs) got lost to bolivian
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Don’t worry bro. I saved it for you.
 
How can such a useless conversation generate so much replies ?
 
iwhoopedbatman said:
Edit: I should add that there is a strong argument that the game is much better today than it was in the 90's as well. And while casuals scoff, it's unquestionably true teams are deeper, more versatile and better today than they were then. Obviously the rules have a lot to do with style of play, but God knows the game is more pleasant to watch now as well. What we lost were the true 1 on 1, best vs. best match ups of the iso era. But we also get to see an era where the 'super complex' triangle offense that dominated that era is a simplistic relic, so I'll take this. I personally don't think the improvement from 90's to here really compares to the difference between the 90's and the pre-merger era, but it definitely exists.
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I'd argue fundamentally the game was better in the 80's and 90's. Many current and former coaches have pointed this out too, as have former players and analysts. The game was more balanced as far as being able to apply defensive tactics to take on offensive ones (for example). Lax rules designed to improve scoring in the modern NBA have resulted in better statistics in those areas. Same goes for the NFL where imo, it's much more noticeable. There are guys that are stars in today's league that may have never been more than specialists in the 80's and 90's.


Talent being indentified and nurtured earlier and earlier which results in players spending more time in controlled and specialized environments also helps too. Prep schools and so on have always existed to some extent, but it's more specialized than ever now for all sports.
 
1.Jordan
2.Kareem
3.Magic
4.Russell
5.Bird
6.Lebron
7.Shaq
8.Duncan
9.Hakeem
10.Wilt

Each of these has a legitimate case as the best to ever play their position.

the other greats
11.Dr. Js
12.Isiah Thomas
13.Moses Malone
14.Kobe
 
Madmick said:
FFS, ESPN getting ahead of itself again. Oh well, it's my boy Pelton, I'm always interested to hear his numbers:
LeBron or MJ? How the King is settling the GOAT debate
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Fucking lol @ this. They're so desperate to create phantom narratives for this topic. The funny thing is a lot of this was being done when Kobe was at his peak, now it's LeBron. 5 years from now it will be someone else. All being compared to MJ because MJ still keeps people's focus when it comes to basketball discussion.


We're now even starting to enter territory where analysts weighing this stuff have legit never watched MJ dribble a basketball, but somehow this pie chart that they labored over for however long will get to the bottom of the debate haha.


I dunno, I like LeBron, I disliked Kobe -I watched all these guys play including Michael. There's no comparison here for me. Kobe and LeBron are/were fantastic, but they fall short of MJ and his absolute domination of the league when he played. But I personally don't watch with this stuff in mind, I try and enjoy greatness for what it is and when it's in it's moment. Kind of like watching prime Anderson Silva or GSP. I wasn't sitting there saying to myself 'this guy is better than that guy'. That's just me tho I guess, I'm weird like that.
 
IronMan374 said:
Meaningless when he beat a 73-9 team, down 3-1 in the finals. Led in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, not just leading his own team, but leading the Warriors team, as well.

He is GOAT, and was GOAT even before that series.
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Lols...

Them damn Celtics though..

Right?
 
IronMan374 said:
Meaningless when he beat a 73-9 team, down 3-1 in the finals. Led in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, not just leading his own team, but leading the Warriors team, as well.

He is GOAT, and was GOAT even before that series.
Click to expand...

6 rings to 3
6 fmvps to 3
5 League mvps to 4
10 scoring titles to 1
3 stls titles to 0
9x All def to 6
1 DPOY to 0
0 finals meltdowns to 1

Lebrons best stat line:

30/8/7
31/6/7
28/7/7

Jordan's best stat lines:

37/4/5
35/5/6
32/8/8
33/7/6

Jordan won more, accomplished more, put up better stats, faced better competition overrall, had less talent around him, and always came through when it mattered. And once he got over the hump he never got beat. LeBron gets beat every year.

MJ is GOAT, LeBron has No argument.
 
TheComebackKid said:
6 rings to 3
6 fmvps to 3
5 League mvps to 4
10 scoring titles to 1
3 stls titles to 0
9x All def to 6
1 DPOY to 0
0 finals meltdowns to 1

Lebrons best stat line:

30/8/7
31/6/7
28/7/7

Jordan's best stat lines:

37/4/5
35/5/6
32/8/8
33/7/6

Jordan won more, accomplished more, put up better stats, faced better competition overrall, had less talent around him, and always came through when it mattered. And once he got over the hump he never got beat. LeBron gets beat every year.

MJ is GOAT, LeBron has No argument.
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Basically this. I would only make a couple of amendments though.

Firstly, it's debatable about who had more help around them. A supporting cast of Pippen/Grant + good role players, or Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc + good role players, is about as solid as it gets. Especially when you factor in Phil as coach, and the fact that these teams came about organically, and weren't forced like Lebron's superteams.

Secondly, there is an argument for Lebron being GOAT, i.e. the "new breed" argument, i.e. modern athletes will always be superior to previous generations. It's a pretty weak argument, and not really backed up by anything objective. But it does exist.
 
gspieler said:
Basically this. I would only make a couple of amendments though.

Firstly, it's debatable about who had more help around them. A supporting cast of Pippen/Grant + good role players, or Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc + good role players, is about as solid as it gets. Especially when you factor in Phil as coach, and the fact that these teams came about organically, and weren't forced like Lebron's superteams.

Secondly, there is an argument for Lebron being GOAT, i.e. the "new breed" argument, i.e. modern athletes will always be superior to previous generations. It's a pretty weak argument, and not really backed up by anything objective. But it does exist.
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I suppose you could make a new breed argument for Lebron but like you said it would be a weak one. Especially considering Steph is on his way to getting his 3rd chip in this same era, KD his 2nd. Kobe and Duncan picked up 5 each.

I think if you could make a new breed case for Lebron, Kobe, and Duncan. Based strictly on resume, regardless of era, you can make a case for Russell, Kareem, and Jordan. You could make a stats case for Wilt and Jordan(yearly) or Kareem and eventually Lebron(accumulative). You could make a "winners" argument for Russell, Magic, Bird, and Jordan. And you could make an eye test case for Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, and Magic. Taking everything into account...only Jordan and Kareem have real claims to the top spot imo.
 
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