Who should control the workplace? Worker Codeterminiation

[ultramanhyata]

If someone tried to tell me how to run my business, I would tell them to go fuck themself.

It's your thirst for knowledge and willingness to learn that always keep me eager to read your latest posts, Bob.

 

[lifelessheap]

*Sigh*

Well, if I really was a communist, I wouldn't be talking about trying to work with employers through laws and institutions, I'd be talking about having a proletarian revolution where the industry is seized by the workers, followed by dismantling the government.

I am a socialist, but I'm not a radical. Not when it comes to this, at least.

"Laws and institutions." Well, there it is.

I live in California. These laws, regulations and institutions NEVER STOP.

Drip. Drip. Drip.

DRIP.

The encroachment by the state is relentless. I've been around and dealing with HR for decades. Employees who completely lose their ability to do their jobs can't be fired! There are a million ways to game the system. My wife is currently dealing with an employee who CAN'T be given work. If he is given work he will screw it up and it will cost them clients and millions of dollars. He has been through training THREE TIMES. He has been given special assistance and guidance for nearly 2 years. This will go on forever.

So it isn't communism or socialism, but what the fuck do you call paying someone for not working? What do you call it when the state wont let you fire people who can't work or who cost you millions of dollars of business? And every year more and more laws make it harder and harder to determine how a business is run. It makes it harder and harder to compete in this world.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

I came across this interesting article on the concept of worker codetermination


http://peoplespolicyproject.org/2017/09/08/models-for-worker-codetermination-in-europe/


The article then goes on to look at various models of codetermination in France, Germany, and Switzerland. I recommend reading the entire thing.

What say you Sherdog, do you see value in these models that give workers more control over the companies they work for? Should the US consider adopting something like this?

Is there value? Sure. But if it's my money and name on the line then I should be the one calling the shots.

 

[Jack V Savage]

The encroachment by the state is relentless. I've been around and dealing with HR for decades.

The issue here isn't "state encroachment vs. no state encroachment;" it's "state encroachment on behalf of owners vs. state encroachment on behalf of workers."

 

[brothir]

"Laws and institutions." Well, there it is.

Uh, yes, the foundation of a functioning democracy?

I live in California. These laws, regulations and institutions NEVER STOP.

That's probably good, right? If they literally stopped, then California would become anarchy.

The encroachment by the state is relentless.

Yes, the democratically elected government of the state you choose to live in is really out to get you. There's no escape.

I've been around and dealing with HR for decades. Employees who completely lose their ability to do their jobs can't be fired! There are a million ways to game the system. My wife is currently dealing with an employee who CAN'T be given work. If he is given work he will screw it up and it will cost them clients and millions of dollars. He has been through training THREE TIMES. He has been given special assistance and guidance for nearly 2 years. This will go on forever.

Well, it's unfortunate that they're stuck with someone who's incompetent. Ideally that wouldn't be the case, obviously. But what are the options here? It sounds like this would be the case regardless of where he worked given all the training he's been through, so if it weren't your wife it'd be someone else.

So, what should a society do with people who can't work? Shooting them in the head isn't really an option. Letting them starve on the streets is pretty cruel. To me it seems we just have to accept the fact that not everyone can be productive, and that the best option is to essentially subsidise their existence. That is in a sense what the your wife's workplace is doing, placing him in a cubicle and asking him to not do anything for 8 hours a day (or however the arrangement works, I'm just illustrating). Now that feels really bad, because someone's being a drain and he's right there in your face. So the less aggravating option is to have some sort of welfare arrangement where even though people like him aren't working, they still have a place to live and food to eat.

It makes it harder and harder to compete in this world.

Well, the US is one of the places in the world with the most resources, you've plenty of fertile land, and there's lots of people to do work. There's no reason any American should go around and worry about their ability to compete, because in principle you have everything you need to provide for everyone. So the issue you raise here largely exists because it's been decided that it needs to exist.

 

[brothir]

Drip. Drip. Drip.

DRIP.

Man, I could feel that last drop. It was so strong there was no hope in stopping it, it just had to be spelled out in all caps.

 

[brothir]

Spoiler

 

[ultramanhyata]

So it isn't communism or socialism, but what the fuck do you call paying someone for not working? What do you call it when the state wont let you fire people who can't work or who cost you millions of dollars of business?

Your little story sounds like complete bullshit based on my own experiences.

On what basis is "the state" not allowing your wife's employer to terminate the alleged entirely incompetent employee? Please be specific.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Is there value? Sure. But if it's my money and name on the line then I should be the one calling the shots.

But is just your money on the line? If the decision affects the workers shouldn't they have some say?

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Your little story sounds like complete bullshit based on my own experiences.

On what basis is "the state" not allowing your wife's employer to terminate the alleged entirely incompetent employee? Please be specific.

Whoa...i don't think I wrote that

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Your little story sounds like complete bullshit based on my own experiences.

On what basis is "the state" not allowing your wife's employer to terminate the alleged entirely incompetent employee? Please be specific.

Seriously...where did you find This? I didn't write it

 

[ultramanhyata]

Whoa...i don't think I wrote that

haha... Yeah. I have no idea how that happened. But I fixed it. Sorry.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Seriously...where did you find This? I didn't write it

@lifelessheap was the author.

 

[bobgeese]

It's your thirst for knowledge and willingness to learn that always keep me eager to read your latest posts, Bob.

Judging by my post to like ratio, I'd say people here tend to agree with my point of view.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

haha... Yeah. I have no idea how that happened. But I fixed it. Sorry.

Thanks...i seriously thought I was going crazy...like disassociate identity disorder

 

[ultramanhyata]

Judging by my post to like ratio, I'd say people here tend to agree with my point of view.

Yes, if the same, single WRR (War Room Retard) "liked" every one of your posts that would about get you there. Keep up the good work.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Thanks...i seriously thought I was going crazy...like disassociate identity disorder

I think we both just experienced some type of space/time quantum event. I will tell the grandchildren about it one day.

 

[Snackbar]

Didn't read the article, but does employee co-determination mean the employees carry a portion of the corporate liability?

For instance if a chemical plant had a large spill and the EPA leveled a 2 million dollar fine would that be payroll deducted evenly from all the co-determined employees?

Or if Frank's sandwich hut had a shitty 3rd quarter and had a net lose would all the employees receive substantial cuts in pay or dividends until profitability returns?

Honest question I'm not being a dink.

 

[irish_thug]

My gut feeling is it would end up similar to what has happened with too many labour unions. Start out with great intentions, end up with crippling the business.

 

[RockstarChris]

hows that going for Europe?