Which throwdown art is more practical for bjj, wrestling or judo?

You'll get the russian tie by breaking the grip, or loosening up your gi jacket so you can swivel a bit. Things you should be doing the moment your opponent grabs you anyway. I can also ratchet over his wrist with my shoulder.

The ankle pick can still occur, just depends how they step or who's arm is longer and how you are pressuring. As an example, if he's stiff arming me with his right hand, and my right hand is on his head, i can pull him down and make him step with his left foot, reaching with my left hand to his left foot, negating the distance of the right arm. This isn't ideal if your opponent has a huge reach obviously, but similar sizes, absolutely.
 
As above, the easiest way to get the Russian is opponent reaching for the collar or your head.
 
Russian ties are gotten from an opponent grabbing your head, getting a baseball tie on their wrist climbing your opponent's arm like a rope, and and snapping their head with your arm on the side you want the Russian then reach across and grab their wrist
 
jack36767 said:
Russian ties are gotten from an opponent grabbing your head, getting a baseball tie on their wrist climbing your opponent's arm like a rope, and and snapping their head with your arm on the side you want the Russian then reach across and grab their wrist
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But is this still a feasible option, when dealing with jackets?
 
MadSquabbles500 said:
But is this still a feasible option, when dealing with jackets?
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For a non wrestler it may require more drilling but yes. Hell, if you're really good at russian ties you can pressure a jiu jitero down to the ground keeping his arm and opening up one hook already for you, or an armbar usually belly down.
 
Badger67 said:
For a non wrestler it may require more drilling but yes. Hell, if you're really good at russian ties you can pressure a jiu jitero down to the ground keeping his arm and opening up one hook already for you, or an armbar usually belly down.
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The putting the hand down on the mat like you're shoveling coal/dirt is the most underrated takedown from the Russian. That and the outside step fireman
 
Wrestling is an absolute must. You need to know how to stuff double legs, single legs and how to tie up. Then you can use Judo to complement your Wrestling if you so choose.
 
GKY said:
I prefer wrestling. I feel that someone who has wrestled for 6 months will easily take down and control anyone who has never wrestled and is less that 20 lbs of muscle bigger than them, gi or no gi. Judo has a steeper learning curve, so it may take 2-3 years before that same person training judo is competent enough to easily and reliably take down and control someone 20lbs bigger than them, especially without the gi.

Also I honestly feel wrestling has some really useful ground work stuff that we simply don't see taught anywhere else. Especially their stuff on standing up after being taken down and their front headlock work. If you're really lucky and get to train freestlye wrestling you also learn a lot about how to ride someone who doesn't want to be there.
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Actually even back before 2008, when double legs were a normal part of judo, a lot of college wrestlers tried out judo and found they not only couldn't take competitive judoka down, but were thrown a fair amount until they learned how to use the gi (recreational guys who do judo a couple of hours a week are a different story of course). The gi really changes everything. Its why judoka do relatively poorly without it, and why you don't see wrestlers taking over competitive judo. You see this a lot in Russia, where wrestlers (and Russia has the best in the world) try out sambo (a jacket sport) and have real troubles for the first year. Don't underestimate how much difference the handles a jacket provides makes in throws and takedowns.

If it really were as easy as you say to take down someone who'd never wrestled with wrestling technique, every judo gold medalist pre-2008 would have been a wrestler; but in fact only one ever achieved that, a Mongolian who started out wrestling, and even he had to spend six years learning to use the gi to win in the Olympics. And every sambo champ would be a wrestler (and that too just isn't happening). The cross-over between wrestling and judo in the Olympics has always been tiny, because what works in no-gi doesn't work against gi's in high level competition, and vice-versa. What works in the local club against recreational people is no indication of what its like in the real world of competitive judo and wrestling.

Of course, its unlikely you're going to be doing either judo or wrestling at international level; if you mean casual wrestling or casual judo, I'd say the learning curve is less steep for wrestling. And ultimately either is much better than the throws/takedowns you learn in most (but not all) BJJ clubs.

My own preference is for sambo, but its hard to find a sambo club in NA.
 
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I prefer Judo even though it takes "2-3 years" to be able to do throws on trained people. It took me like a week. lol

The weird truth is that most people suck at standup naturally where I was kind the opposite. I guess that's why BJJ is so popular and I always kind of...barely tolerated my time in BJJ.

There's a couple Kurt Osiander matches on youTube, the guy knows a shit ton of takedowns. The thing is he just...falls down even though his opponent's throw was shitty and not deep enough. lol

That's how most people are, they fall down so easily and there doesn't seem to be much you can do about it.

You show them a Judo throw and they're so awkward, tripping on their feet and it never works. I guess I understand why most people hate it.

 
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GKY said:
I prefer wrestling. I feel that someone who has wrestled for 6 months will easily take down and control anyone who has never wrestled and is less that 20 lbs of muscle bigger than them, gi or no gi. Judo has a steeper learning curve, so it may take 2-3 years before that same person training judo is competent enough to easily and reliably take down and control someone 20lbs bigger than them, especially without the gi.

Also I honestly feel wrestling has some really useful ground work stuff that we simply don't see taught anywhere else. Especially their stuff on standing up after being taken down and their front headlock work. If you're really lucky and get to train freestlye wrestling you also learn a lot about how to ride someone who doesn't want to be there.
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We had this discussions before and it was decided that even 4 years of HS wrestling "wasn't shit". Then there were other caveats, rust belt, california, D1, etc. It got ridiculous. lol

People with 4 years of HS wrestling experience very seldom take me down since they are very predictable. 6 months at some MMA academy is total shit but most BJJers are so awful it could be right.

Former wrestlers are actually more dangerous at passing and control than standing up IMO, it's a big advantage and they tend to move through the ranks faster. But you can only really train in high school or college and the advantage is mostly in physicality, base, etc...largely irrelevant to older people.

I'd say learning the mechanics without the physique or athleticism is just about pointless. You need to be young, strong, fast and energetic to make these work.
 
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wrestling of course. the strength and conditioning from wrestling alone is gain no where else.
 
I guess it depends on how readily one can get past the jacket grips and get close enough to get the non jacket style clinch from which to work the non jacket style of takedowns.

With that said can one readily get past the grips on the jacket?
 
I have been training wrestling for a month now. First, let me tell you that the instructor is REALLY important. My wrestling instructor really loves wrestling so he gets frustrated when I do bad moves. He stays with me for 2 hours drilling moves. Not sending me to practice them alone. But he actually does them with me, for 2 hours. That is something I did not do before. Second, I thought I was signing up for a 1 hour wrestling class. It's actually a 2 hours class, an it's more demanding than my judo 1 hour class. Third, an found this kind of funny, there are some judo people that go to train wrestling to improve their explosiveness, because they are kind of slow. I never saw wrestling people go to a judo class. Fourth, EVERY throw I have learned can be applied with gi or no gi SAFELY WITHOUT GIVING YOUR BACK. With only one month of training. In judo I could only do one throw after 4 months. Could not land a throw without gi. Fifth. In judo you learn how to throw. In wrestling you learn how to throw WITH CONTROL of the person while landing. So basically now I throw and land in 100kg directly. In judo, I just threw the person. Finally, there are some concepts in wrestling that REALLY help your bjj. Applying your weight on the other person. Moving around like a monkey while sprawling (lol).Just crushing your opponent with grips and holds.
I really love judo, but I definitely thing that wrestling is better for bjj. I mean, there are just so many things that benefit your bjj, not only throwing!
By they way. Anyone that says that wrestling does not require technique, has obviously never trained wrestling. It's actually quite elegant.
 
AnotherOldGuy said:
Actually even back before 2008, when double legs were a normal part of judo, a lot of college wrestlers tried out judo and found they not only couldn't take competitive judoka down, but were thrown a fair amount until they learned how to use the gi (recreational guys who do judo a couple of hours a week are a different story of course). The gi really changes everything. Its why judoka do relatively poorly without it, and why you don't see wrestlers taking over competitive judo. You see this a lot in Russia, where wrestlers (and Russia has the best in the world) try out sambo (a jacket sport) and have real troubles for the first year. Don't underestimate how much difference the handles a jacket provides makes in throws and takedowns.

If it really were as easy as you say to take down someone who'd never wrestled with wrestling technique, every judo gold medalist pre-2008 would have been a wrestler; but in fact only one ever achieved that, a Mongolian who started out wrestling, and even he had to spend six years learning to use the gi to win in the Olympics. And every sambo champ would be a wrestler (and that too just isn't happening). The cross-over between wrestling and judo in the Olympics has always been tiny, because what works in no-gi doesn't work against gi's in high level competition, and vice-versa. What works in the local club against recreational people is no indication of what its like in the real world of competitive judo and wrestling.

Of course, its unlikely you're going to be doing either judo or wrestling at international level; if you mean casual wrestling or casual judo, I'd say the learning curve is less steep for wrestling. And ultimately either is much better than the throws/takedowns you learn in most (but not all) BJJ clubs.

My own preference is for sambo, but its hard to find a sambo club in NA.
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Tuvshinbayar?

He umm, definitely had some experience with breaking grips on a jacket before he started judo.

Because Mongolia.



 
I wrestled and did judo before starting bjj

If you only have one day a week to train either to improve your bjj I say pick wrestling.

The learning curve in Judo is a motherfucker and at one day a week, you'll be lucky to throw a resisting BJJer with a low stance without putting yourself at risk on the ground.

Having a wrestling-turned pre IJF-BS Judo base allowed me to adapt my Judo/Wrestling to BJJ, but we're also talking over a decade of training hard between the two arts before I started Jitz. You're picking one from scratch, so I say go wrestling.
 
I think Judo is better for gi BJJ but it has a steep learning curve so i dont think it would work in your particular case.

Once you are good at it though, you will put fear into people.
 
Where do you find wrestling classes?

Judo is open to the public but wrestling?
 
Wrestling man.


These pure BJJ guys can't handle the intensity, the top game and hip power.
 
I've noticed a steep learning curve in judo too. Does anyone know why that is?
 
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