Which throwdown art is more practical for bjj, wrestling or judo?

[maddog7]

Having done both fairly decently, wrestling. More control, less risky positions, more of a do or die attitude, less breaks in competition/practice, transitions to gi and no gi better. only about 1/10 of the judo throws transition to no gi ( i have many i use but some are very position specific and more of a go to). Wrestling also teaches you how to ride your opponent and wear him down with just your weight better than judo does, though judo osae-komi can be debilitating for an opponent.

I strongly object to the "Wrestling ... transitions to gi...better" part.
What makes you think that? Are you speaking from experience there?

 

[Bluesbreaker]

It was bugging me so I tried to do a quick bit of searching on my phone. I couldn't find a specific competitor that it would have been, but the general consensus on forums at the time of the rule change (Jan. 1st 2010) was that everyone thought the IJF was trying to stop wrestlers from shooting on people.

Update: Mark Cocker is the individual I found that most closely fits the story and time frame, but he did Japanese ju jitsu, Sambo, and freestyle wrestling before judo, not catch wrestling.

Update: I also thought I remembered the story being that the person was a Mongolian catch wrestler, but I wasn't sure. I googled that and came up with Tuvshinbayar Naidan. He also fits the time frame very well and is the person i think the story was about, but there was some misinformation. He is a judoka who was also a Mongolian wrestler (traditional Mongolian wrestling, not freestyle or greco). He added those techniques to his judo game and won an Olympic gold medal using a lot of leg attacks. However, he had trained extensively in judo and continued to have a good amount of success after the rule change.

They were mostly trying to stop stalling tactics used by some of these guys. Pick up a minor score, shoot for half-hearted takedowns, rinse and repeat.

But because we're talking about the IJF here, they take the absolute worst route to stopping such tactics.

 

[Badger67]

I strongly object to the "Wrestling ... transitions to gi...better" part.
What makes you think that? Are you speaking from experience there?

Judo blue belt, Wrestled 3.5 years and coached for 2 (still run training programs for a few) and currently 1 stripe blue belt in bjj. Definitely speaking from experience.I use judo throws that transition to my wrestling, or i just wrestle fuck. i don't use risky judo throws at all.
Judoka's have a habit of using risky throws that land them with their back taken when ippon isn't scored, in BJJ this is a death trap. This wont happen to a wrestler off takedowns, but it might in the guard if they keep their head down without controlling the arms (cross collar, guillotine and triangle city).

 

[maddog7]

Judo blue belt, Wrestled 3.5 years and coached for 2 (still run training programs for a few) and currently 1 stripe blue belt in bjj. Definitely speaking from experience.I use judo throws that transition to my wrestling, or i just wrestle fuck. i don't use risky judo throws at all.
Judoka's have a habit of using risky throws that land them with their back taken when ippon isn't scored, in BJJ this is a death trap. This wont happen to a wrestler off takedowns, but it might in the guard if they keep their head down without controlling the arms (cross collar, guillotine and triangle city).

Ok but there are plenty of less risky judo throws for BJJ. I never had much trouble using my Judo in BJJ comp and I could stuff wrestling attacks more often than not.
Keep in mind I'm speaking of gi here.

 

[Kincaid]

You can learn a lot from top level judo and top level wrestling.

But bad wrestling beats bad judo almost all the time, and you spend a lot of time being bad.

 

[Badger67]

^^ Yep.

Ok but there are plenty of less risky judo throws for BJJ. I never had much trouble using my Judo in BJJ comp and I could stuff wrestling attacks more often than not.
Keep in mind I'm speaking of gi here.

There are, and those are the ones i use, but doing an overehead grip uchi mata will get you back arched or back taken. Best done from over/under (my best throw), or a very violent chin pick (i only use this for A-holes). Ouchi and Kouchi are useful set ups, sweeps work well. But as a whole most of the throw game is hard to transition unless you spend a lot of time figuring it out, which takes from other aspects. Wrestling will work regardless of gi or no gi because of how they grip; clothes only aids their grips, not detracts. And stiff arming a wrestler is asking to be russian tied or ankle picked. Wrestlers mainly have to worry about the ground where we are susceptible to guillotines and Tri's and cross collar (bane of my existence in my early days). I'm not saying judo is useless, just that if i had to choose only one...there's a reason i've learned all 3, to be more complete.

 

[maddog7]

^^ Yep.


There are, and those are the ones i use, but doing an overehead grip uchi mata will get you back arched or back taken. Best done from over/under (my best throw), or a very violent chin pick (i only use this for A-holes). Ouchi and Kouchi are useful set ups, sweeps work well. But as a whole most of the throw game is hard to transition unless you spend a lot of time figuring it out, which takes from other aspects. Wrestling will work regardless of gi or no gi because of how they grip; clothes only aids their grips, not detracts. And stiff arming a wrestler is asking to be russian tied or ankle picked. Wrestlers mainly have to worry about the ground where we are susceptible to guillotines and Tri's and cross collar (bane of my existence in my early days). I'm not saying judo is useless, just that if i had to choose only one...there's a reason i've learned all 3, to be more complete.

Well, you don't get easily back arched while executing uchi mata with an overhead grip.
I mean it is a possible counter in Judo also (ura nage) but it is not easily done against a practitioner who knows what he is doing.
Wrestling doesn't work nearly as well when you're wearing a jacket and your opponent knows how to use lapel grips to control you.
Stiff arming is a legitimate problem for a Judo guy though, that's true.
Ditto having your back taken.
I know how hard it is to transition Judo to no gi but transitioning to BJJ Gi isn't that big.

 

[RJ Green]

wrestling. no other sport comes close to consistent practice intensity. they also don't spend time talking about proper handshakes or whether or not your shoes are tied properly.

purists are clowns. go cross train.

 

[mrshadeed]

I want to learn one, an I only have 1 - 2 days per week to train.

If I had 1-2 days per week and had to pick between Wrestling and Judo, I would choose Judo. Training Judo gives you a comfort level with controlling people on the feet that will help you throughout your time on the mats. Transitions from throw to submission, amazing balance and takedown defense and I've found from starting to go to Wrestling practice, that a lot of Judo techniques transition quite well into Wrestling, once you get comfortable.

To develop Judo that works well vs. Wrestlers and no-Gi scenarios, you must make your Judo "flexible". I've found that doing as much standup training/rolling in Jiu Jitsu practice will help you get rid of the upright posture that comes with Judo and help you hit your throws vs. anybody after enough time has passed.

 

[PowerSource]

The best art to compliment Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with Gi is without a doubt JUDO
IJF Rules does not determine what judo is about!
If you are interested in learning judo for BJJ you must find a school where the main instructor also trains in BJJ so he/she can teach you what works, how to move, types of strategies that can be use in different situations and grips!!!!
As far as gi, don't waste your time with wrestling unless you can practice the 3.

 

[jack36767]

I'll say again as a wrestler now that the judo purists have chimed in... go with the best instructor and training partners

 

[selfcritical]

^^ Yep.


There are, and those are the ones i use, but doing an overehead grip uchi mata will get you back arched or back taken. Best done from over/under (my best throw), or a very violent chin pick (i only use this for A-holes). Ouchi and Kouchi are useful set ups, sweeps work well. But as a whole most of the throw game is hard to transition unless you spend a lot of time figuring it out, which takes from other aspects. Wrestling will work regardless of gi or no gi because of how they grip; clothes only aids their grips, not detracts. And stiff arming a wrestler is asking to be russian tied or ankle picked. Wrestlers mainly have to worry about the ground where we are susceptible to guillotines and Tri's and cross collar (bane of my existence in my early days). I'm not saying judo is useless, just that if i had to choose only one...there's a reason i've learned all 3, to be more complete.

Sambo splits the difference here, since roll-through throws can't get you a total victory win.

Also, I think the degree to which there are no high-risk techniques in normal wreslting is overstated. Head and arm throws, which every HS wrestler learns, risk your back as much if not more than any over the back grip, and running the pipe can go....comically wrong with a jacket.

 

[selfcritical]

I'll say again as a wrestler now that the judo purists have chimed in... go with the best instructor and training partners

Word.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Everyone is completely missing the most important factor which is WEIGHT CLASS

Anyone under heavyweight, wrestling is better simply because everyone stays in a low stance. I dont care if you are a judo blackbelt, someone in a low ass wrestling stance is going to negate judo all day long. Smaller to mid size guys, we all either want to pull guard, or have the option to pull guard against someone who is better on their feet. This means we are going to be low, and it means you will not have a chance with judo if we are low.

Upper/heavyweights, judo is better. Hardly anyone stays in a low stance, and big guys do not shoot or attack legs anywhere near as well as small guys. This means they mostly wrestle upper body. Big guys having a low risk judo style attack have a massive advantage because when standing upright, gi grips can negate a lot of upper body wrestling, especially where speed is not a factor (heavyweights).

Ideally, if you are a big guy, you want to adapt your wrestling attacks based off of grips. If you are a lower/middleweight guy, you want to base your attacks from a low stance that allows the option of pulling guard, timing guard pull defense, and being low enough to negate any kind of judo (which is easy).

 

[Badger67]

Sambo splits the difference here, since roll-through throws can't get you a total victory win.

Also, I think the degree to which there are no high-risk techniques in normal wreslting is overstated. Head and arm throws, which every HS wrestler learns, risk your back as much if not more than any over the back grip, and running the pipe can go....comically wrong with a jacket.

Yep, and it's why every wrestling coach i've ever had tells you do not do head and arm throws once back arching suplexes are legal in tournaments due to the risk reward ratio, and why i don't do them and learned the hard way the first time in a greco roman match.
I love all the grappling arts and infuse them fairly well, but there are fore more useful takedowns and posture, riding ability from wrestling. I haven't done enough sambo to comment though did do some of it for about a month, so i'll take your word on it (i still don't understand all of their rules).

 

[MadSquabbles500]

This is a very interesting thread. I think it gonna start another one about no-gi technique applied in the jacket setting for standup, and how well it works.

 

[jcgonzmo]

Let me get this straight, adapting Judo to No - Gi is as difficult as adapting Wrestling to Gi?

 

[jcgonzmo]

I have read every single post, and the answers are great. It would be even better though to order are thoughts and create a PRO and CON list of Judo and Wrestling for BJJ.

 

[Ryoto Machida]

Let me ask you guys another doozie. If Judo allowed pants grabbing, and shooting for the legs, and letting your knee touch the mat, then will you basically just see leg tackles, and less hip throws and trips in judo?

I think you'd see a more complete art that flowed seemlessly between shots and throws.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

^^ Yep.


There are, and those are the ones i use, but doing an overehead grip uchi mata will get you back arched or back taken. Best done from over/under (my best throw), or a very violent chin pick (i only use this for A-holes). Ouchi and Kouchi are useful set ups, sweeps work well. But as a whole most of the throw game is hard to transition unless you spend a lot of time figuring it out, which takes from other aspects. Wrestling will work regardless of gi or no gi because of how they grip; clothes only aids their grips, not detracts. And stiff arming a wrestler is asking to be russian tied or ankle picked. Wrestlers mainly have to worry about the ground where we are susceptible to guillotines and Tri's and cross collar (bane of my existence in my early days). I'm not saying judo is useless, just that if i had to choose only one...there's a reason i've learned all 3, to be more complete.

Can you still ankle pick when getting stiffed armed with jacket on? Wouldnt it be hard to get in close enough to reach? And with the russian two on one or tie up (if I have my terms right), also be much different. It would be harder to get the russian tie wouldnt it?