Which party do you think libertarians vote for more?

[JohnnySagebrush]

All of this summarizes to one thing: We have a different understanding of what it means to be a libertarian. What then would you call a social liberal and fiscal conservative?

Independent? Not everyone’s views fit into a platform.

 

[peytonlucy]

Libertarians would seem to be closer to Republicans, except many of them want to smoke pot and dicks.

 

[peytonlucy]

Personally, I cannot think of any one right of center more reprehensible than Ayn Rand. Maybe I haven't thought through the list carefully, obviously excluding criminals.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

But I voted for Gary Johnson the previous two elections, knowing that he wouldn't win. But the party is breaking records every election, mostly because of the displeasure with the GOP I'm sure.

What kind of records? Because every election I've paid attention to has them in the low single digits.

I remember someone made a thread about libertarians in presidential elections shortly after Trump won last year. He showed how libertarians have never gotten above 5% despite participating in elections for something like 40 years.

It surprised me because I really thought they only had 20-something years of electoral history. But it really opened my eyes as to how incredibly marginal they are.

 

[sub_thug]

Independent? Not everyone’s views fit into a platform.

I don't know where this stringent definition of a libertarian is coming from. Most people seem to have no issue with it, but here, I'm seeing a few people talk about it like it's a fringe movement.

 

[Jack V Savage]

All of this summarizes to one thing: We have a different understanding of what it means to be a libertarian. What then would you call a social liberal and fiscal conservative?

Not enough info. They could be a liberal, conservative, or many other things.

 

[Greoric]

Whichever side has the more unrealistic and uniformed policy as pertaining to a particular issue.

Not an argument.

 

[Greoric]

Personally, I cannot think of any one right of center more reprehensible than Ayn Rand. Maybe I haven't thought through the list carefully, obviously excluding criminals.

Why was she reprehensible?

 

[Trotsky]

Not enough info. They could be a liberal, conservative, or many other things.

"Fiscal conservative" is another increasingly ambiguous term that muddies that characterization.

Some people mean that term to preclude robust entitlement regimes and promote a Randian survivalist society, some mean "socially liberal" to encompass said entitlements, some merely equate "fiscal conservative" to mean that regardless of how money is spent it is done efficiently or with a balanced budget.

For instance, I have an accountant friend who considers himself, and wants a president to be, a social liberal and fiscal conservative. But he's firmly a social democrat when it comes to entitlements spending, and is just meaning to convey that revenue is spent wisely and strictly.

 

[TeTe]

What kind of records? Because every election I've paid attention to has them in the low single digits.

I remember someone made a thread about libertarians in presidential elections shortly after Trump won last year. He showed how libertarians have never gotten above 5% despite participating in elections for something like 40 years.

It surprised me because I really thought they only had 20-something years of electoral history. But it really opened my eyes as to how incredibly marginal they are.

1.2 million votes in 2012... well surpassed in 2016 with 4.4 million votes. Records for the party in the presidential election.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I don't know where this stringent definition of a libertarian is coming from. Most people seem to have no issue with it, but here, I'm seeing a few people talk about it like it's a fringe movement.

I think it's the opposite. Lots of libertarians here, but in the real world, it is an extreme fringe movement.

 

[Jack V Savage]

"Fiscal conservative" is another increasingly ambiguous term that muddies that characterization.

Some people mean that term to preclude robust entitlement regimes and promote a Randian survivalist society, some mean "socially liberal" to encompass said entitlements, some merely equate "fiscal conservative" to mean that regardless of how money is spent it is done efficiently or with a balanced budget.

For instance, I have an accountant friend who considers himself, and wants a president to be, a social liberal and fiscal conservative. But he's firmly a social democrat when it comes to entitlements spending, and is just meaning to convey that revenue is spent wisely and strictly.

Yes, I usually think of "fiscal conservatism" as being entirely about support for revenue and spending being roughly even with no comment about their levels. But from context, I think he means supporting right-wing spending priorities (like more military spending and less social welfare spending). That's another area where I think people (not ST necessarily) are trying to change language a little to sneak unpopular agendas past the public.

 

[sub_thug]

I think it's the opposite. Lots of libertarians here, but in the real world, it is an extreme fringe movement.

Using your very strict definition, that would be true. However, using the word in common usage to describe those that are conservative on economic issues and more liberal on social ones, I would say that there are large pockets of the US that are more libertarian than they are conservative.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Using your very strict definition, that would be true. However, using the word in common usage to describe those that are conservative on economic issues and more liberal on social ones, I would say that there are large pockets of the US that are more libertarian than they are conservative.

I don't think that is the common usage, and note that libertarian candidates do extremely poorly in elections in comparison to mainstream ones. Further, the "libertarian" aspects of each major party's platform are the less-popular ones. Around 10% of the population self-IDs that way.

 

[sub_thug]

I don't think that is the common usage, and note that libertarian candidates do extremely poorly in elections in comparison to mainstream ones. Further, the "libertarian" aspects of each major party's platform are the less-popular ones. Around 10% of the population self-IDs that way.

Gary Johnson did about 3 times as well as the closest third party candidate in the 2016 election. Source: https://www.270towin.com/2016_Election/

What is your source for saying that 10% of the population self-IDs as a libertarian?

 

[peytonlucy]

Why was she reprehensible?

Her mantra of selfishness is good for starters.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Gary Johnson did about 3 times as well as the closest third party candidate in the 2016 election. Source: https://www.270towin.com/2016_Election/

What is your source for saying that 10% of the population self-IDs as a libertarian?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/08/25/in-search-of-libertarians/

http://news.gallup.com/poll/154889/nearly-half-identify-economically-conservative.aspx

(see social liberal/economic--better term than fiscal for reasons @Trotsky pointed out--conservative).

 

[Greoric]

Her mantra of selfishness is good for starters.

Plainy stating a reality is reprehensible now? Who do you know that isn't selfish? Of course all the conservatives are? Not you I'm sure...

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

I don't think economics should really define libertarianism.

Unless we are willing to use the government to regulate us back to a mom and pop store economy, and go isolationist, I do not understand how libertarian style free market economics in a global economy, isn't fairy tail stuff.

The machines are already here, and this is just the first wave.

While not a perfect example, I use the example of "Ebay" to demonstrate how a stateless society could structure itself.

On Ebay, they settle tens of thousands of cases of fraud and misrepresentation, all without law courts or sanctions that reach beyond the eBay scope. Reputation is a commodity in and of itself. The first few people you do business with are taking a bit of a risk, but in time, your reputation builds to the point that most people will feel confident in entering into contract with you.

I understand this example isn't perfect, but it demonstrates the ability for dispute resolution to be satisfactorily carried out in the private sphere.

P.S. I gotta give you credit, you meme game has improved VASTLY in the past few months.

 

[peytonlucy]

Plainy stating a reality is reprehensible now? Who do you know that isn't selfish? Of course all the conservatives are? Not you I'm sure...

You think that all Rand was doing was putting selfishness in a typical context?