Which of our ancestors made the most sturdy, and effective battle ready swords

[Primitivo]

I'm my own ancestor and I don't plan to give away my sword making knowledge for free.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I agree with most of what you say about both weapons. It seems like sabre suits your personality more due to being much more aggressive and favoring cuts. However the electric scoring has destroyed a lot of realism making it way to easy to hit and much more difficult to parry- its better to parry with distance as the blade can whip around your parries. Epee feels the most realistic but because it favors defense and requires lots of patience i can understand getting bored if you're a bit of a hot head and want some immediate action. Sabre really has the potential to be awesome if they changed a few things.

doing 2 weapons is fine but as you get better you will find that training the correct reactions for one weapon will be the wrong reaction for the other- ie due to right of way in sabre you will need to parry a correctly executed attack, while in epee there are many more opportunities for a counter attacks. At the higher levels fencers specialise in one weapon only.

perhaps you could learn to be aggressive with the blade in epee- wrap up your opponents blade before attacking. Germans are good at this.

Yeah dude, I found it so awesome wielding that sabre and the whipping noise it makes. Although I suspect that it makes that noise just due to my newbness, i.e. movements that are way too ample. IMO sabre fencing with épée rules would be the ultimate solution but hey, it doesn't exist. Anyways I asked the trainer and she said that afterall she sees me more with an épée than with a saber, so there is that.

And no, I am not bored at all with the épée and as you mentioned, nothing stops me from having my own aggressive style with it. If I understand what you mean by wrapping the blade then I have already started to do that instinctively, but what I have in speed and initiative I lack in dexterity, so I often get poked on the arm as I come in.

Lastly, you obviously have a very good point about training the wrong reactions. For example, I have noticed that some points in épée come from being quick on following up with a second attack before the counter attack to first attack comes, which isn't valid in sabre.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

First experience in the more mixed class yesterday.

I am happy to say that I held my own against more experienced guys. Lost matches @ like 6-10, 13-15 and 11-15. Was even leading on points at some point.

In my tiny experience so far, agressivity and mobility are an asset, as long as movements are controlled and as long as you have a slight edge in speed. I think that people in Épée expect much slower fights.

I tend to gas though. If I want to develop that agressive style, I am going to need some anaerobic cardio.

Oh and damn......my legs are taking a solid beating with these lunges and quick retreats. Knees are swollen. Hope that my body will get used to it (I am 35).

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Lol the way this is going, fencing is going to cost me my relationship with my GF. Everytime we fence together we end up screaming at eachother in front of the whole club. It's madness.

At first she would scream at me for hitting too hard. And for being too agressive. And for using too many feints.

Ok so I really made an effort to slwo down and use a plain style.

But then she screams at me when I hit her on the head or on the legs (allowed in épée).

She screams if I just stand still, waiting for her to initiate.

Yesterday I discovered a move : you know when you push your opponent blade to the side or towards the ceiling, close the distant quickly and go head to head ? Well obviously she hated that as well.

She insults me for scoring the most plain-vanilla points. She even slashed me on the wrist AFTER I scored a point out of frustration (pretty tabou IMO, kind of like hitting someone after the bell).

Anyways......I don't know wtf is wrong with her but it's always the same : I start scoring too many points, she becomes a sore loser, starts fencing really bad, so I score even more points, and then she turns into a total cunt that has zero self-control.

It's so fuckin weird. When she's not in cunt mode she's pretty quick and even beats me. But then when she becomes frustrated she loses all agression in fencing, freezes and become super slow, but compensates by screaming at me. I swear yesterday I was parrying all her shit matrix style.

Anyways, to be continued....

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Meh, it seems that my fencing career is already being compromised in its infancy.

I have a swollen and painful right knee (never happened to me before and I know it is attributable to the lunges).

Thing is, I have been lunging with bad form : knee way beyond the vertical line of the heel.

If you add that I move very fast and explosively, with rather unflexible hips and legs (so that my lunges tend to be narrow, but I compensate by overextending beyond the heel line), well, I have been stressing my right knee way too much since I started.

I am going to see an orthopedic doc and will see from there. If I can't continue with my explosive style, and if fencing is compromising my knees' health (thank God I have had no problem until now) then fuck it, I am not sure that I'll continue.

 

[Protectandserve]

^Damn man that sucks. Hope your knees heal up and you can make some tweaks to keep going

 

[barnowl]

So I tried the sabre this week-end.

Potentially pretty cool since it is more varied (you can thrust and cut, although I think that it is a much more cut-oriented discipline).

You also have more parrying since the cuts are actually more parryable than thrusts.

However, you just need to touch the opponent for get the point. At least in Épée there is a minimal pressure on the point of the weapon to be applied.

Also, I much dislike the Right of Way rules. Like you can't make 2 attacks in a row. You make your first attack, and if your opponent parries, you have to wait for his counter-attack.

So all in all, although I feel a natural inclination towards the sabre, I am pretty ambivalent about it. Maybe I can train both ?

You have a slight miss understanding of RoW. It by the was originally implemented as a training technique in the small sword to promote learning to defended and counter. I trained epee, saber, foil, and coached foil.

Anyway the trick with right of way is to never let the opponent take it away. Sometimes this is easy some times it is hard. Ask your couch about the Remise, or continuation of the attack, it lets you follow the the first attack with another with out loosing right of way. If you lose RoW, you don't have to wait, just take it back. This can be done with either a parry-repost , beat, glissade, or if you are just flat faster recover and restrike before they can respond.

 

[barnowl]

Meh, it seems that my fencing career is already being compromised in its infancy.

I have a swollen and painful right knee (never happened to me before and I know it is attributable to the lunges).

Thing is, I have been lunging with bad form : knee way beyond the vertical line of the heel.

If you add that I move very fast and explosively, with rather unflexible hips and legs (so that my lunges tend to be narrow, but I compensate by overextending beyond the heel line), well, I have been stressing my right knee way too much since I started.

I am going to see an orthopedic doc and will see from there. If I can't continue with my explosive style, and if fencing is compromising my knees' health (thank God I have had no problem until now) then fuck it, I am not sure that I'll continue.

Sounds like you are landing toe first instead of heel first. To fix that try this trick when your knee heels. Find a hard wood or smooth floor surface, place a quarter on the ground. Now come on guard with your front heel on the quarter. Practice the lung by first lifting your toes and then kicking the heel forward, if you do this right the quarter will get launched across the floor with your heel leading the lunge. The leading heel should impact first and cause the impact shock to transfer through the leg with out stressing the knee as the foot rolls the shin forward in to the final lunge position. This also happens to be the fastest method for the lunge.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Sounds like you are landing toe first instead of heel first. To fix that try this trick when your knee heels. Find a hard wood or smooth floor surface, place a quarter on the ground. Now come on guard with your front heel on the quarter. Practice the lung by first lifting your toes and then kicking the heel forward, if you do this right the quarter will get launched across the floor with your heel leading the lunge. The leading heel should impact first and cause the impact shock to transfer through the leg with out stressing the knee as the foot rolls the shin forward in to the final lunge position. This also happens to be the fastest method for the lunge.

Txs for the tipp. My coach gave me similar advice and I now try to pay better attention to my lunges and overall footwork.

Went to the orthopedic doctor who prescribed me a sleeve as well as an MRI on my knee, but doesn't think that the swelling warrants to stop doing sports at this point.

In any case the swelling is almost gone and my knee feels pretty normal these days. I think I'll be fine by just being a little careful + using ice.

There was a competition at my club this W-E with a fencing store that brought equipment (there is no fencing store in my city, so it was the only opportunity to purchase stuff), so I bought everything minus the Épée. I am out of 330€ but I won't have to fence in these rotten suits and masks that they lend us at the club. yay.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

Footwork is everything.

Beginners focus on the blade and hands, but people with experience focus on the feet.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

So here's an update : my right knee is swelling now and again.

On the bright side I have done an MRI which confirms that there is no damage in my knee ; ligaments, tendons and cartilage are intact. The radiologist believes that the fluid in the knee comes from overworking the joint. Not sure what to do about that but at least I can continue the activity.

Now on the fencing part, I feel like in the last couple of months people have caught up to my speed. I am still better than most of the people I fence against, but by a narrower margin. I am catching people off guard less frequently. Also, this dude that I used to mop the floor with has beaten me recently. Granted, he trains 3 times a week and I only train once a week (due to the knee among other things)...

Also, my nemesis, this 1,95m lanky dude still gives me a world of trouble. It's unbelievable how much distance the dude covers in one lunge. I've been trying to poke him in the arm while retreating but that sh1t is incredibly difficult. His reach makes him such a formidable opponent.

I think that I am going to try to focus more on blade control to try to break the distance, as I have noticed that I usually take the point in close quarters.

Anyways this sport is awesome.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Pretty humbling experience this week. Went against a competitive fencer in his early 20's.

First match went 0-5

Second 2-5

Third like 4-15

Most of my points were double points, or when he was trying some funky stuff.

I asked the trainer if that guy was highly ranked or something, and she said nope, just a standard good competitor.

Meh. The difference in skills felt like the difference between a white and a purple in BJJ.

 

[Thycidides]

s

Anyway, the difference s between Hema and fencing are not as large as some if the hema community make out. Of all the activities they resemble each other the most . hema is still a sport just with different rules. If people took the competition in hema more seriously then it would resemble fencing in form and intent- is more modern professional training and bending rules to score a win. Mat East on suggested fencing scoring in epee could be improved by removing the double hit ,including after blow and limiting leg target. I agree with him but in the end not a lot would change- the same fencers would adjust their game and still dominate and fencers would use the after blow as a tactic to cancel out opponents attacks if they were leading the score. Hema and fencingvare both fun and should be complimentary.

I just watched a Matt Easton Video about Hema competition and he said just about anybody can beat anybody else in it. Apparently he loses to less experienced people al the time I wonder how much of this is because he is old and doesn't train much or if the HEMA rules favor the lucky hits?

Also he complained about people being too aggressive and scoring double hits . I get the sense that a lot of people don't internalize what he teaches them even after years of lessons and several tournaments That's disappointing considering someone that competes in BJJ will internalize the rules if they compete several times in a year.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

The thing is, training techniques in HEMA are still fairly crude. They are greatly improving, and continue to improve, but its often non-systemised. In an established art, you have generations of training to fall back on. Not so in HEMA. Most HEMA folks train for a couple hours a week. Its all very casual. The curriculum of most salles will tend to sample the techniques and move on to different material every week, so very little gets internalized strongly.

Now the best places train systematically. They are lead by people who have figured out the material and advance their recruits in a systemic way. They dont sample..they train.

 

[Thycidides]

Can you name these places? I plan to train with Ramon Matinez and Jared Kirby this year in Canada, if you have heard of them.
I was considering going to train with Mat Easton eventually but if his students can't implement what they learn at the tournament he runs I dunno if its worth the trip.

 

[Thycidides]

I used to post on HEMA forum until I realized many people calling themselves instructors had no clue about how to teach or even learn martial arts.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

Its depends on your goals really. There are two strains to HEMA..the academic approach and the tournament approach. The academic approach is about studying and exploring the art for its own sake. Any of the big orgs should be fine.

If you are into tournament fighting, then look at the orgs that win alot of tournaments. Of course this is a very fuzzy line, as many of the competitive fencers are also active researchers, and some of the non competitive researchers are as good as any of the competitive fencers.

 

[Thycidides]

I think I would like to train with people that do so systematically and have good footwork. The people in the videos previously posted in this thread are respected competitors in hema, but as noted have bad footwork and move very badly. Where can I find good videos of people with good technique? Maybe I should just watch police kendo videos.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I think I would like to train with people that do so systematically and have good footwork. The people in the videos previously posted in this thread are respected competitors in hema, but as noted have bad footwork and move very badly. Where can I find good videos of people with good technique? Maybe I should just watch police kendo videos.

Honestly, it seems to me that you are where I was 6 months ago and possibly coming to the same conclusions

Re-read the thread if you are curious.

I started training olympic fencing because I wanted real training and footwork, and I am still convinced that that was the best course of action to take, even if my interests were originally HEMA.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Can you name these places? I plan to train with Ramon Matinez and Jared Kirby this year in Canada, if you have heard of them.
I was considering going to train with Mat Easton eventually but if his students can't implement what they learn at the tournament he runs I dunno if its worth the trip.

I think that Matt Easton is a very interesting expert when it comes to historical information and I have really learned ALOT watching his vids.

Now, bare in mind that I have hardly any experience with swords so my point of view might not be worth a shit, but I do not agree with many things that Matt Easton says about fighting and sparring.

In a nutshell, his stance kind of reminds me of the eternal carricatural TMA point of view on combat : "modern full contact disciplines would be defeated by TMAs in a real-life situations because TMAs are designed to kill blah blah".

This type mentality translates to a certain lack of physical training in HEMA, because as Matt Easton seems to think, technique trumps all.

You'll see a bunch of respected HEMA experts on YT that look terribly out of shape and can't move well.

However, upon a second look, you'll notice that these guys are deceptively precise and quick with their weapons, so some of the stuff that they do is done right.

But what about the guy who trained in a competitive setting with proper footwork ? Well he'll be as precise and quick with his weapon, only he'll be able to move as well.

Check out these 2 vids of military sabre fighting, in both of them you'll see a dude called Nick showcase his craft (wearing the black and red shoes in both vids). To my untrained eyes, he is the best HEMA practitionner I have ever seen. His strikes and footwork are rather regular and systematic, and he pulls off some matrix stuff from time to time. I have seen vids of him where he does not get touched once in like 5 mn sparring. He might benefit from loosing a couple of kilos, but I think Nick is legit as f**k and you can guess that he had some proper, systematic training with a certain emphasis on footwork :