Which of our ancestors made the most sturdy, and effective battle ready swords | Page 12

Discussion in 'Weapons and Tactics' started by MadSquabbles500, Oct 19, 2015.

  1. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    That's true. However it seems hema is closer to its Olympic counterpart than kickboxing is to Tae Kwan do.

    It has potential to be really cool though.
     
    #221
  2. SweetDaddySiki Orange Belt

    SweetDaddySiki
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    There is a split in HEMA that is not unlike the Kendo-Kenjutsu split.

    Most HEMAists do freeplay. But a large portion of the HEMA community does not attend tournaments or believe in the competition scene. The belief is that tournament play distorts the historical technique, and the rediscovery of the technique is what is important. Dont think that these guys cant fight..many of them are really really good at freeplay. Guys like Devon Boorman or Roland Warzecha (who frequently spars with sharps) would kick ass on the tournament scene if they decided to join it.

    That being said the tournament guys tend to be better trained and much more atheletic. Most of them are extremely knowledgeable of the historical technique. The best of them know that tournament play is optimised for points, and do not pretend that tournament fighting is a simulation of a real sword fight. They know that the lack of a fear of death and the unsharpened weapons distorts the technique, and that rules are needed to prevent a tournament fight from devolving into endless corps a corps stand up grappling, or long range tippy-tap sniping.
     
    #222
  3. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Arrow sash belt with Lederhosen

    KBE6EKCTAH_CCP
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    Could you please give us other big names in the competing HEMA community to follow?

    Are Nick Thomas and Matt Easton highly ranked as competitors?
     
    #223
  4. SweetDaddySiki Orange Belt

    SweetDaddySiki
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    I'm not sure how highly placed they are in major competitions.

    Take a look at the big names at Swordfish, SKUNKS and Longpoint..those are the big competition guys.

    Off the top of my head:

    Axel pettersson (winningest tournament fighter)
    Anders Linnard
    Lee Smit
    Kristian Ruokonen
    Jake Norwood
    Dustin Reagan (one of my favs..originally a fencer and it shows)
     
    #224
  5. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Arrow sash belt with Lederhosen

    KBE6EKCTAH_CCP
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    Thanks. Checked them out. They are all longsword artists.

    I know that you specialise in the longsword, but I am more interested in the sabre, rapier and I.33. Would you happen to have recommendations there ?
     
    #225
  6. SweetDaddySiki Orange Belt

    SweetDaddySiki
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    Cant really help you much with Sabre or Rapier. I do know Lee Smith from Blood and iron does polish sabre.

    The best I.33 guy is Roland Warzecha. he doesn tcompete in tournaments, but the common opinion seems to hold as as first tier.
     
    #226
  7. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Arrow sash belt with Lederhosen

    KBE6EKCTAH_CCP
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    Oh that's interesting. I was never impressed by Lee Smith. Pretty accurate with the rapier but moves around like shit. Very out of shape.

    Also surprised that Warzecha is that good. Sure his style is elegant but he somehow always stroke me a slightly bullshido-ish.

    That's why I need to ask people like you, because my eye is not trained enough to recognise greatness when I see it :)

    What do you think of Dave Rawlings (of London Longsword) for I.33?
     
    #227
  8. 00 Buck Purple Belt

    00 Buck
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    Ehh... swords were/are just tools that will eventually break or wear out.

    So it depends on the usage. IMO european hand and a half/bastard swords were prettty good for fighting armored enemies before gunpowder became widespread.

    And long ass dueling rapiers were unmatched for one on one fights in open terrain.

    I think katanas are waaay overrated and the evolution of its design did not progress that much compared to european swords. Mostly because they were such an isolated nation vs. west where everyone was constantly fighting each other.
     
    #228
  9. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    I was interested in the 1.33 too, but it seems like no one can really implement it in a competition. There seems to be a lot of disagreement about how to do the moves described in the text, each person familiar with it has their own idea about it but they haven't competed against each other to see whose technique is better.

    Someone you should check out is Ikka Hartikanian. He teaches Bolognese fencing and competes too

     
    #229
  10. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Arrow sash belt with Lederhosen

    KBE6EKCTAH_CCP
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    I remember watching this Ikka guy and thinking first wow that's awesome. But then I realised that what he does is possibly waaaay to flashy and cut oriented.

    Bolognese sideswords should be used as a predominantly thrusting weapon IMO but these guys use them almost like sabres.
     
    #230
  11. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Apparently a sidesword isn't used that differently than a saber. One could also use more of a thrusting technique with a saber, which Is why I suggested any type of swordplay with thrusting and constant pauses would more or less resemble epee fencing.
     
    #231
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  12. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Arrow sash belt with Lederhosen

    KBE6EKCTAH_CCP
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    Well, could this be a misinterpretation of the weapon ? I fail to see how a weapon with such a blade could not be designed to be predominantly a thrusting weapon. That is not to say that it isn't a cutting weapon as well, but the thin, long blade (I think the blade is around 90 cm) makes it by design a thrusting weapon, IMO. A bolognese sidesword is essentially a small rapier. Yet these guys hardly thrust with it.

    See that's a problem I find with reconstructing an art based on renaissance treatises. We have actually no clue how they were actually fought. Could it be that these treatises are extremely theoretical and that nobody actually fought like that in practice ? Kind of like the way karate sparring doesn't look at all like the kata ? This is where IMO theory should stop and concrete sparring should take over.

    And this is where I totally agree with you on sport fencing : it's the most efficient, natural and no-bullshit way to use these swords. I always cringe when I see people with a rapier in those weird cat stances that look pretty exotic but have absolutely zero feet mobility. It's obvious that they are trying to reproduce engravings and but these stances don't seem natural at all to me.
     
    #232
  13. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    The bolognese side swords are the same length as a lot of sabers actually. They can be the same thickness of later sabers as well. I've read the material and a lot of it is devoted to cuts. There are vague instructions for kata like forms, but there are also some clear instructions.

    It seems like cuts were preferred as they were easier for novices to train than thrusts and safer to do in 1500's competitions.
     
    #233
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  14. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Arrow sash belt with Lederhosen

    KBE6EKCTAH_CCP
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    I'll take your word on the bolognese sidesword, if you say you have read the treatises. But I am still pretty surprised.

    Also, are you sure about the bolded part? The reproductions I have seen of bolognese sideswords had a blade of ~ 92 cm, which is the length of a very long cavalry sabre.

    Infantry sabres, on which sabre systems are based, have usually much shorter blades, say around 80 cm. So do one hand cutting swords such as most arming sword and backswords.

    So are you sure that a blade that long and with that shape is made primarily for quick cutting motions? I'm really not trying to be an ass - it's a genuine observation.
     
    #234
  15. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Problem is these terms are I'll defined and reproductions don't always match historic examples.

    length doesnt really determines thrusting capability, 19th century smalls word tend to be smaller and shorter than sabers for example, but were mostly thrusting weapons.
     
    #235
  16. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Arrow sash belt with Lederhosen

    KBE6EKCTAH_CCP
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    Short blades are found in both cutting and thrusting weapons. Examples respectively : cutlass or german Messer and smallsword as you mentioned.

    But it doesn't go both ways on equal terms. Reach favors thrusting more than cutting. A blade that is too long is clumsy to cut with, but will be a good thruster.
     
    #236
  17. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Well Matt Easton seems to think sideswords aren't much longer or different than sabers.

    My friend has both a side sword replica and a Spanish rapier replica, the rapier is much longer, narrower and slightly heavier than the side sword.

    All this discussion makes me want to start fencing again. Thinking about trying it again.
     
    #237
  18. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Arrow sash belt with Lederhosen

    KBE6EKCTAH_CCP
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    Do it !

    You would be doing sport épée / sabre ?
     
    #238
  19. Torrid Cunning Linguist

    Torrid
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    When I fenced (sabre), I swear like 75% of the scores came across the wrist/forearm. I think that changes at upper levels, but for my few years doing it, that was the main scoring target.
     
    #239
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  20. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Not sure. There is a place that does epee, classical fencing and hema longsword. Its all taught be the same coach. I'm more interested in classical fencing and long sword but not sure how much sparring or free play is involved. I do know that this places stopped offering longsword classes for a bit because the injury rate was high. It looks like id be paying for semi private lessons.

    There is a competitive hema group too but I'm reluctant to try it because it is the same time I have judo and it probably isn't very professional.

    I could also try kendo, which I have a very limited familiarity with. to be honest that looks like the best fit as they have a Saturday class and I have some experience with it.
     
    #240
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017

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