Where are the Kimuras?

Kimuras were never really that popular. It seemed like you saw 'em more because there were a lot more specialists years ago in the bigger organizations; Hiroyuki Abe's known for being one of the best grappling coaches in Japan, and people who've trained with him talk about how he knows all these crazy entrances and variations of leg-locks that you wouldn't be able to learn anywhere else, just as an example. It's not really like they were way more common, it's just the specialists like that had platforms you could watch 'em on. Grappling-heavy styles nowadays are more streamlined and about hyperfocusing on the basics rather than trying some new stuff, which's why you see so many guys who have extremely similar fighting styles to the point where it's almost cookie-cutter. This may just be me, but don't Mirsad Bektic, Chad Mendes and Alexander Volkanovski all fight extremely similarly? I can't even think of a big difference between how the three of them fight that isn't nitpicky.
The Kimura also typically requires putting yourself in a position that risks you getting put into a vulnerable position should it not work and a skill with "riding" your opponent, and both of those things are kind of passively discouraged nowadays. Learning the ride has pretty much always been discouraged in Jiu-Jitsu because of the way the points system is in competitions-- if you're riding your opponent, you're not securing half guard or finalizing a pass, so you're not getting any points-- but the fact that you can get reversed and be put into a vulnerable position means a lot of guys don't go all-in with trying to finish it, and, well... you kind of have to be all-in if you really wanna get a finish.
You see a lot of crazy submissions like that in ZST, if you're interested. That organizations always had an extremely good grappling-development system. The basic submissions-- a rear-choke from back control, an opportunistic guillotine, either a well-timed or a methodically-progressive armbar-- have always been way more common, though. It's the same reason you see more people get hurt with jabs, hooks and round kicks than you do with the smash punch or front kicks.

However, the greater move to the cage rather than a rope surrounding in this sport is a partial reason for it. The cage nerfs a lot of grappling moves (single-legs are the big one; they're all about forcing the guy off-balance and using leverage and rotation to force the guy down, and it's a lot harder to do that when the guy can dig themselves into the wall of a cage), just as a roped surrounding nerfs a lot of grappling moves that work great in a cage (you don't see double-legs nearly as much in any ringed organization like you do in the UFC; once you can actually sprawl, a double-leg becomes WAY easier to defend.) If you lock up someone's arm from side control, the person can get themselves in a much more advantageous defensive position by maneuvering closer to the cage; it can act as a barrier preventing your arm from either getting cranked or your opponent from moving to a better position to execute, and, of course, a wall to walk and posture yourself up with, which, for obvious reasons, can help escape it. Try doing any of that with a rope-- even defending a takedown by grabbing onto the cage is easier than grabbing onto the rope.

A related example of that was the Tatsuya Kawajiri-Clay Guida fight. Kawajiri wasn't entirely himself in that fight-- it was in Abu Dhabi [temperature of about 120 degrees during the event] and Kawajiri's a gigantic featherweight, and the heat in the area's been known to fuck up recovery from the weight-cut for a lot of big fighters (Kendall Grove nearly KO'd Mark Munoz like 3 times in their fight in Abu Dhabi)-- but the difference in grappling styles between a guy who's spent his career in a ring compared to a guy who's spent it in a cage was very interesting. Guida basically won the fight by holding onto Kawajiri in a reverse bearhug position and kneeing him in the ass and legs and occasionally getting a nice takedown between that. Kawajiri defended it in classic Japanese fashion, though, by focusing on breaking Guida's grip around his waist and, when he did, grabbing hold of a double-wristlock ala Kazushi Sakuraba and using that to reverse the position. Guida was able to nullify that significantly, though, just by digging Kawajiri into the cage on the side of the arm he'd locked up so he couldn't get any space to turn the arm around. He was able to land it once, though, in a very nice highlight-reel moment (there used to be a gif of it, but not no more.)


Yeah, those are all pretty old and it worked when it was pretty uncommon. It's still possible, but way harder to get now.

It was called a double-wristlock before it was a Kimura and it's been taught in Jiu-Jitsu since at least the 50's, and Jūdō for decades before that. It's not some rare move that only worked cuz' nobody knew how to defend it; I don't know where you're getting that from. Josh Barnett had a double-wristlock locked in on Nogueira 11 years ago and Nogueira defended it just by doing the classic switch-between-americana-and-kimura maneuver with his elbow.
 
Yeah, those are all pretty old and it worked when it was pretty uncommon. It's still possible, but way harder to get now.


Because as the sport progresses so do the fighters talent levels. Same thing you've heard in other sports for years, bigger, faster, stronger, better...

Just piggybacking your shit Nostra
 
Kimuras are a bitch to set up and even more of a bitch to finish. You have to commit to them and use so much muscle just to try and make it work. Kimuras are easy to defend and hard to execute.
 
I like them a lot. Seems to be used more as a good scrambling tool now, a lot like the omapolata.
 
Is there some BJJ technical reason we don't see kimura submissions anymore? Something you can't catch on a real expert?

Seems like the only submissions we see anymore are RNC and the occasional Von Flue from OSP.
Tony Ferg and The Diamond love D'arcing the shit out of people, but this is what happens when everyone trains for years and years to avoid armbars, kimuras & triangles. fighters 10 years ago use to get caught in those cool ass subs 5 and 6 times a card. Now we're lucky if we see 1 or 2 of each in a year. Everybody had it wrong when we thought fighters and fights would be amazing when everyone starts cross-training MMA from a young age, all this did was put everyone on a level playing field, so not only do we not get to see cool subs anymore, but it's mainly the same old shit from every fight now. The evolution of MMA was a mistake, at least to the degree it has evolved to today.
 
To all the people saying submissions are dying. 4/5 of the fights on the 216 card ended with submissions.

2 armbars, 1RNC and one triangle..
 
Sometimes you lock that shit up and somebody really strong will muscle out of it. Even though they are tired from scrambling out it fucks up your position and sometimes you lose your position all together.

So here we go to answer your question: Many great fighters are out there, but they are jack of all trades, master of none. It takes a looong fucking time to master staying heavy and balance while executing a sub on the ground. Longer than it takes to learn to crank a sub.

Jiu Jitsu purist dudes go for subs like that more often based on their ability to focus on the intricate details of staying balanced while executing the move. There are not too many jits purists left out there. I can only think of Jacare and Maia. Any others? **Werdum doesn't count, lately much clinching knees and stand up altogether.
 
Khabib did kemura on MJ year ago, was pretty cool
 
Submission grappling isn't "obsolete" as some like to say. Rather, it's gone from being a difference-maker to being a fundamental/foundation skill.

Anyone who doesn't train it isn't getting past the local MMA circuit in their town.
 
-- it was in Abu Dhabi [temperature of about 120 degrees during the event] and Kawajiri's a gigantic featherweight...

midget-version-of-badass.jpg
 
Kimuras submissions are quite rare, but I often see fighters going for kimuras and forcing a scramble due to that, as the kimura victim often needs to keep his back on the ground to evade it.

And I don't think that's a bad thing, very often we see fighters wasting lots of energy in failed RNCs or triangles and still ending up with his back on the mat.
 
It's a "strong man" hold

not when it's done properly, it isn't. no more than an armbar, really.

Way to easy to defend now. Day one shit.

we see other basic submissions all the time. we see BJJ world championships being won with day one shit. kimura being basic has nothing to do with it, when it's applied properly you either tap or your shoulder gets torn to shit.

That shit works when nobody knew what it was. Pretty easy to defend now that people have seen it. RNC is the most common because people are usually in bad shape to give up their back in the first place, and it gives you a lot more time to work. Triangles from the bottom are also getting less common when Nogueira used to get them on everyone. Defending subs takes way less time to learn than getting them.

pretty much the same reply as the one above. trust me, you can study the mechanics of the kimura as much as you want and get to know it, but if you roll with jacare he will get it on you from any position he chooses.

the reason we don't see it as much in mma is that guys will rarely submit anyone from top sidecontrol in modern mma, as they opt to drop strikes instead. as for the bottom, they're mostly used to set up sweeps and often abandoned once you establish top position, for the exact same reason. you're in a great spot to do damage.

i'd also say that the general level of ground skill in the ufc is pretty low, especially offensively. most ufc fighters come from a wrestling background and prefer to either establish top position and land punches, or keep it standing altogether. the truly elite bjj specialists either aren't making the transition into mma, or are making it and getting their ass kicked for their lack of striking / wrestling. we really need more jacare types, man.
 
Kimuras were never really that popular. It seemed like you saw 'em more because there were a lot more specialists years ago in the bigger organizations; Hiroyuki Abe's known for being one of the best grappling coaches in Japan, and people who've trained with him talk about how he knows all these crazy entrances and variations of leg-locks that you wouldn't be able to learn anywhere else, just as an example. It's not really like they were way more common, it's just the specialists like that had platforms you could watch 'em on. Grappling-heavy styles nowadays are more streamlined and about hyperfocusing on the basics rather than trying some new stuff, which's why you see so many guys who have extremely similar fighting styles to the point where it's almost cookie-cutter. This may just be me, but don't Mirsad Bektic, Chad Mendes and Alexander Volkanovski all fight extremely similarly? I can't even think of a big difference between how the three of them fight that isn't nitpicky.
The Kimura also typically requires putting yourself in a position that risks you getting put into a vulnerable position should it not work and a skill with "riding" your opponent, and both of those things are kind of passively discouraged nowadays. Learning the ride has pretty much always been discouraged in Jiu-Jitsu because of the way the points system is in competitions-- if you're riding your opponent, you're not securing half guard or finalizing a pass, so you're not getting any points-- but the fact that you can get reversed and be put into a vulnerable position means a lot of guys don't go all-in with trying to finish it, and, well... you kind of have to be all-in if you really wanna get a finish.
You see a lot of crazy submissions like that in ZST, if you're interested. That organizations always had an extremely good grappling-development system. The basic submissions-- a rear-choke from back control, an opportunistic guillotine, either a well-timed or a methodically-progressive armbar-- have always been way more common, though. It's the same reason you see more people get hurt with jabs, hooks and round kicks than you do with the smash punch or front kicks.

However, the greater move to the cage rather than a rope surrounding in this sport is a partial reason for it. The cage nerfs a lot of grappling moves (single-legs are the big one; they're all about forcing the guy off-balance and using leverage and rotation to force the guy down, and it's a lot harder to do that when the guy can dig themselves into the wall of a cage), just as a roped surrounding nerfs a lot of grappling moves that work great in a cage (you don't see double-legs nearly as much in any ringed organization like you do in the UFC; once you can actually sprawl, a double-leg becomes WAY easier to defend.) If you lock up someone's arm from side control, the person can get themselves in a much more advantageous defensive position by maneuvering closer to the cage; it can act as a barrier preventing your arm from either getting cranked or your opponent from moving to a better position to execute, and, of course, a wall to walk and posture yourself up with, which, for obvious reasons, can help escape it. Try doing any of that with a rope-- even defending a takedown by grabbing onto the cage is easier than grabbing onto the rope.

A related example of that was the Tatsuya Kawajiri-Clay Guida fight. Kawajiri wasn't entirely himself in that fight-- it was in Abu Dhabi [temperature of about 120 degrees during the event] and Kawajiri's a gigantic featherweight, and the heat in the area's been known to fuck up recovery from the weight-cut for a lot of big fighters (Kendall Grove nearly KO'd Mark Munoz like 3 times in their fight in Abu Dhabi)-- but the difference in grappling styles between a guy who's spent his career in a ring compared to a guy who's spent it in a cage was very interesting. Guida basically won the fight by holding onto Kawajiri in a reverse bearhug position and kneeing him in the ass and legs and occasionally getting a nice takedown between that. Kawajiri defended it in classic Japanese fashion, though, by focusing on breaking Guida's grip around his waist and, when he did, grabbing hold of a double-wristlock ala Kazushi Sakuraba and using that to reverse the position. Guida was able to nullify that significantly, though, just by digging Kawajiri into the cage on the side of the arm he'd locked up so he couldn't get any space to turn the arm around. He was able to land it once, though, in a very nice highlight-reel moment (there used to be a gif of it, but not no more.)




It was called a double-wristlock before it was a Kimura and it's been taught in Jiu-Jitsu since at least the 50's, and Jūdō for decades before that. It's not some rare move that only worked cuz' nobody knew how to defend it; I don't know where you're getting that from. Josh Barnett had a double-wristlock locked in on Nogueira 11 years ago and Nogueira defended it just by doing the classic switch-between-americana-and-kimura maneuver with his elbow.
Great post
 
Not because of great defense. Just not many kimura experts in the game right now.
 
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