When beginners don't "play the game"

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Dougall, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. Dougall White Belt

    Dougall
    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    38
    So I'm signed up to do a charity boxing event at the end of the month. 3 x 1minute rounds, headgear, 16oz gloves etc. It's a complete novice event and nobody who is competing has fought at any significant level before.
    In preparation for it I've been doing a bit more sparring, sparring different people from different clubs too. Now I'm by no means an experienced boxer, only a few months experience, but when I spar I do try to make an effort to focus on my technique; working behind the jab, head movement/hands up, keeping my footwork correct etc. But the guys I have the hardest time sparring are the guys who do none of this. The guys who have even less experience then me and charge in windmilling with wild hooks. There's a guy who does this and his reach is a good few inches longer than mine, and he doesn't seem to get tired throwing endless numbers of punches. Sparring him is harder than sparring more experienced people who seem to box "regularly". When you see the things he does they're the things we get taught not to do because they're "bad technique" but his bad technique is harder to deal with than "good technique", to me anyway.
    People have told me that sparring beginners can be frustrating because they're so unpredictable. So how do you deal with new guys who don't use conventional techniques or don't "play the game".
     
    #1
  2. Chesten_Hesten The Wiener of Steel

    Chesten_Hesten
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,309
    Likes Received:
    11,489
    Study them too. More looks at something the better your probability to deal with it, right or wrong.

    My guess.
     
    #2
    Dougall, 4daLuLZ and ctrlaltdelete like this.
  3. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,032
    Likes Received:
    9,228
    Location:
    Team DaddariGOAT
    Still continue to do what you do, they're just looking to win and won't improve, while you look to work on stuff you need to work on.

    If it gets too heated, shut them down, but keep the focus on working on what you've been drilling all week.

    Some of our top guys "lose" their rounds sometimes, but they work on what they work. Myself, occasionally I "lose" the rounds all session, but I manage to land the slip, 3,2 a couple of times, its an excellent session for me. That's what I came to do, and I did it, and against someone who's just going all out as well.
     
    #3
  4. Bekim Green Belt

    Bekim
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    958
    Likes Received:
    309
    You say he comes in with wild hooks, then blitz his face with straights........go full Vitor on him.......

    Now for the serious bit, like J123 said it's sparring not fighting, learning not trying to win every round.....
     
    #4
    Dougall and ctrlaltdelete like this.
  5. ctrlaltdelete Green Belt

    ctrlaltdelete
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,497
    Likes Received:
    2,335
    Location:
    Dunkin Donuts
    I read somewhere that swarmers are so active because they hate getting hit, and figure that if they're throwing, they're safe.

    An interesting perspective
     
    #5
    Dougall, Reyesnuthugr and j123 like this.
  6. biscuitsbrah Black Belt

    biscuitsbrah
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,934
    Likes Received:
    1,357
    Let them punch themselves out. Learn to counter or evade completely.
    The better you get the more you realize wild hooks are extremely easy to read and get out of the way of.

    Sparring is about improving and not throwing out your "A" game every sparring session. I would learn to avoid the guys like that, until you want to test yourself
     
    #6
    Dougall and j123 like this.
  7. Paradigm Gold Belt

    Paradigm
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    17,087
    Likes Received:
    8,094
    Location:
    LA
    My advice is to keep hitting them in the nose with straight punches until they get the message. If you're going 50% and his nose breaks because he kept charging forward, you both signed a waiver.

    <Fedor23>

    If these guys are new to sparring, they shouldn't be that hard to hit.
     
    #7
    Dougall and j123 like this.
  8. Ilk Orange Belt

    Ilk
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    173
    I really hate guys who will go survival mode and go full on you in a spar. Punish them and punish them properly.
     
    #8
    Dougall and Universal Kombat like this.
  9. Universal Kombat Blue Belt

    Universal Kombat
    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Messages:
    692
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    New guys are not unpredictable either, they just don't typically throw like a trained fighter does, and it gives the impression of unpredictable. Not proud to say, but growing up in the Ghettos of Los Angeles has taught me PLENTY how your average street thug or average Joe reacts in a fight. Learn to counter wild over hand rights would be my first advice to you.
     
    #9
    Dougall likes this.
  10. Universal Kombat Blue Belt

    Universal Kombat
    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Messages:
    692
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    You and me both, though I am not tall guy by any means, there is this 5'6 guy who regularly spars with me, and he always has something to prove, only does it with me too. I always hold back on the knees but once I get fed up I'll start throwing some pretty decent knees and it always seems to calm them down. If they're treating it like a real fight, do the same.
     
    #10
    Dougall likes this.
  11. jau004 White Belt

    jau004
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    3
    If all he does is charge forward you could work on a duck under his hook and liver shot him hard and then pivot with a soft head hook. Or duck under and pivot out to land a cross or something. The beginners I've sparred that goes hard tends so freeze up when hit. I tend to go for their liver to teach them a lesson, it doesn't cause any unneccessary hesd trauma and they might learn to not go so hard.
     
    #11
    Towel88, Dougall and ctrlaltdelete like this.
  12. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,032
    Likes Received:
    9,228
    Location:
    Team DaddariGOAT
    Manlet gonna manlet

    @Pugilistic
     
    #12
  13. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    17,945
    Likes Received:
    2,814
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Yeah, this is a thing. I had the same problem in my first fight, and ended up getting KOed. I can't speak from a striking perspective because I'm not that good yet, but I imagine it's exactly the same as in grappling. Basically, you learn moves but you also learn a meta game. That meta game is based on what works at advanced levels of the sport, and you're taught things in the context of that meta game (he's going to try to do this, you're going to do this in response, and so forth). When someone plays that game with you you have a small bag of tricks you can try, and so you can have what looks like a sensible sparring round.

    With someone who doesn't play that meta, you're kind of on an island. He's not doing stuff you're used to, so you lack automatic responses. Over time what happens is you get good and instead of your reactions being rote (he does this, I do this), your reactions start to become based on what you're being given. An example would be blocking a punch and returning with that same hand. It works because if someone has thrown a punch they're less likely to be able to return to a defensively sound position on that side, so you have the best chance of hitting them on the same side they just threw with. When you first learn it, what you learn is 'I block, I throw with the same hand'. You're probably looking for a specific shot to block so you can throw a specific shot back. Well, as you get better you stop worrying about getting that specific shot to counter; rather you internalize the principle that when someone throws they've created a momentary vulnerability on that side, a vulnerability that is proportionate to how technically they threw their punch. When you see a guy just winging bombs, you instantly recognize that he's giving you huge openings to blast him and you do it. Whereas as a beginner all you can think is 'this guy is throwing in this weird way and I don't know what to do', an advanced guy thinks 'this moron is giving me holes I could drive a Mack truck through' and responds accordingly. Hopefully that makes sense. For beginners it's easier to spar with advanced guys and harder to spar with other wild beginners, for advanced guys the only question is how hard do you want to punish wild beginners for being wild.
     
    #13
    Dougall, Paradigm and Ilk like this.
  14. freaky Black Belt

    freaky
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Messages:
    5,965
    Likes Received:
    4,870
    Location:
    Inside Sherdog
    It's harder to deal with because it's new. You're not accustomed to it. Think back, why your teachers say those are bad moves/techniques. Then try to exploit it's weakness.

    For one, wild looping hoops are slower and easier to spot. So you can counter it with straight punches then go back to blocking or slipping them. You should always be able to hit them first.
     
    #14
    Dougall likes this.
  15. MaxMMA Blue Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    688
    Likes Received:
    503
    This question comes up a lot, more so in the grappling forum. "How do i deal with spazzers? How do i deal with someone "swarming me" or "blitzing me."

    No offense, but if you have to ask this question, you really just need to get back to the gym and get back behind that bag, or back on the mat and keep rolling.

    Blitzing someone that isn't hurt, or spazzing out on someone is the #1 p4p mistake of amateurs. It is the true mark of inexperience and often times fear. Even hyper aggressive professionals don't just carelessly rush in.

    The easiest fights to win are fights were your opponent rushes you at the opening bell. If they are doing nothing but pressing forward then any straight shot you throw is going to land. Straight, circle, straight, circle, straight, circle.

    MMA rules? You don't even have to shoot the double, just change levels and let him run right into your half ass shot.
     
    #15
    Uchi Mata and Dougall like this.
  16. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,032
    Likes Received:
    9,228
    Location:
    Team DaddariGOAT
    You'd be surprised
     
    #16
    Dougall likes this.
  17. Dougall White Belt

    Dougall
    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    38
    Sparred him again twice since then and I've tried to take some things on board. I've found i can catch him with uppercuts, because as he throws he doesn't really move even if I move in on him. Caught him to the body a few times too as his arms are always up and out.

    Found this to be true to an extent, he doesn't take hits very well and they get him to back off for a good few seconds.

    Still wouldn't say I'm comfortable with someone who fights like this though, to land my own shots I'm having to walk through his. I can take most of them on the arms and they don't have much power anyway. But it still definitely feels like I'm getting outworked. And while I might be landing the more significant shots, he seems to land the higher volume.
     
    #17
    ctrlaltdelete likes this.
  18. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,032
    Likes Received:
    9,228
    Location:
    Team DaddariGOAT
    One good things with overaggressive forward pressing partners is they walk into everything making things sting more. The downside is they think you're thowing bombs when really they're walking into counters making it hurt more.

    Sounds like you have the same issue most new guys (myself included at the time) have, its not technical, but you do have to learn how to fight. What I mean is, its nice to be pretty, but alot of times you end up having to play in the mud.

    Outside of a technical spar, when you're looking to "win" more, do that.

    When you do end up sparring that way (winning), keep it in mind the entire time. Alot of times when we look to spar technical and work stuff, and gym warrior has ulterior motives, once you get hit with the intensity it throws your rhythm and breathing off, and it causes you to gas faster. They've taken control of the pace, and you're trying to catch up so your breathing ends up irregular. So if you do "feel" or expect a gym war, keep the mindset of it from the get go.
     
    #18
  19. TheBookofSpeed The Speed Coach

    TheBookofSpeed
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    76
    THIS!

    I get hit more in training than when competing. That's because I'm working on something. That means that I'm applying conscious thought to some aspect of my game (footwork, head movement, etc.). If I was competing I would turn off the conscious thought and rely on my training which should be primarily in my subconscious (subconscious proficiency). Moving our skills to the subconscious is the goal of training. That and working out what works and what doesn't.

    I have a hard time getting beginners, especially the ego driven ones, to accept this. Like was said above. Sparring isn't competing, it's training. Use that time to improve, not to impress somebody. It'll pay dividends in the long run.

    It does help to let your partner know what you're doing so you don't get your head taken off. Might not work at the charity event but it can help any other time you're training.
     
    #19
  20. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,032
    Likes Received:
    9,228
    Location:
    Team DaddariGOAT
    You mean you're not 500-0 in sparring?
     
    #20

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"