When beginners don't "play the game"

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Dougall, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. Dougall

    Dougall White Belt

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    So I'm signed up to do a charity boxing event at the end of the month. 3 x 1minute rounds, headgear, 16oz gloves etc. It's a complete novice event and nobody who is competing has fought at any significant level before.
    In preparation for it I've been doing a bit more sparring, sparring different people from different clubs too. Now I'm by no means an experienced boxer, only a few months experience, but when I spar I do try to make an effort to focus on my technique; working behind the jab, head movement/hands up, keeping my footwork correct etc. But the guys I have the hardest time sparring are the guys who do none of this. The guys who have even less experience then me and charge in windmilling with wild hooks. There's a guy who does this and his reach is a good few inches longer than mine, and he doesn't seem to get tired throwing endless numbers of punches. Sparring him is harder than sparring more experienced people who seem to box "regularly". When you see the things he does they're the things we get taught not to do because they're "bad technique" but his bad technique is harder to deal with than "good technique", to me anyway.
    People have told me that sparring beginners can be frustrating because they're so unpredictable. So how do you deal with new guys who don't use conventional techniques or don't "play the game".
     
  2. Chesten_Hesten

    Chesten_Hesten The Wiener of Steel

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    Study them too. More looks at something the better your probability to deal with it, right or wrong.

    My guess.
     
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  3. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    Still continue to do what you do, they're just looking to win and won't improve, while you look to work on stuff you need to work on.

    If it gets too heated, shut them down, but keep the focus on working on what you've been drilling all week.

    Some of our top guys "lose" their rounds sometimes, but they work on what they work. Myself, occasionally I "lose" the rounds all session, but I manage to land the slip, 3,2 a couple of times, its an excellent session for me. That's what I came to do, and I did it, and against someone who's just going all out as well.
     
  4. Bekim

    Bekim Green Belt

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    You say he comes in with wild hooks, then blitz his face with straights........go full Vitor on him.......

    Now for the serious bit, like J123 said it's sparring not fighting, learning not trying to win every round.....
     
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  5. ctrlaltdelete

    ctrlaltdelete Purple Belt

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    I read somewhere that swarmers are so active because they hate getting hit, and figure that if they're throwing, they're safe.

    An interesting perspective
     
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  6. biscuitsbrah

    biscuitsbrah Black Belt

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    Let them punch themselves out. Learn to counter or evade completely.
    The better you get the more you realize wild hooks are extremely easy to read and get out of the way of.

    Sparring is about improving and not throwing out your "A" game every sparring session. I would learn to avoid the guys like that, until you want to test yourself
     
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  7. Paradigm

    Paradigm Gold Belt

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    My advice is to keep hitting them in the nose with straight punches until they get the message. If you're going 50% and his nose breaks because he kept charging forward, you both signed a waiver.

    <Fedor23>

    If these guys are new to sparring, they shouldn't be that hard to hit.
     
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  8. Ilk

    Ilk Blue Belt

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    I really hate guys who will go survival mode and go full on you in a spar. Punish them and punish them properly.
     
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  9. Universal Kombat

    Universal Kombat Blue Belt

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    New guys are not unpredictable either, they just don't typically throw like a trained fighter does, and it gives the impression of unpredictable. Not proud to say, but growing up in the Ghettos of Los Angeles has taught me PLENTY how your average street thug or average Joe reacts in a fight. Learn to counter wild over hand rights would be my first advice to you.
     
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  10. Universal Kombat

    Universal Kombat Blue Belt

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    You and me both, though I am not tall guy by any means, there is this 5'6 guy who regularly spars with me, and he always has something to prove, only does it with me too. I always hold back on the knees but once I get fed up I'll start throwing some pretty decent knees and it always seems to calm them down. If they're treating it like a real fight, do the same.
     
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  11. jau004

    jau004 White Belt

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    If all he does is charge forward you could work on a duck under his hook and liver shot him hard and then pivot with a soft head hook. Or duck under and pivot out to land a cross or something. The beginners I've sparred that goes hard tends so freeze up when hit. I tend to go for their liver to teach them a lesson, it doesn't cause any unneccessary hesd trauma and they might learn to not go so hard.
     
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  12. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    Manlet gonna manlet

    @Pugilistic
     
  13. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Yeah, this is a thing. I had the same problem in my first fight, and ended up getting KOed. I can't speak from a striking perspective because I'm not that good yet, but I imagine it's exactly the same as in grappling. Basically, you learn moves but you also learn a meta game. That meta game is based on what works at advanced levels of the sport, and you're taught things in the context of that meta game (he's going to try to do this, you're going to do this in response, and so forth). When someone plays that game with you you have a small bag of tricks you can try, and so you can have what looks like a sensible sparring round.

    With someone who doesn't play that meta, you're kind of on an island. He's not doing stuff you're used to, so you lack automatic responses. Over time what happens is you get good and instead of your reactions being rote (he does this, I do this), your reactions start to become based on what you're being given. An example would be blocking a punch and returning with that same hand. It works because if someone has thrown a punch they're less likely to be able to return to a defensively sound position on that side, so you have the best chance of hitting them on the same side they just threw with. When you first learn it, what you learn is 'I block, I throw with the same hand'. You're probably looking for a specific shot to block so you can throw a specific shot back. Well, as you get better you stop worrying about getting that specific shot to counter; rather you internalize the principle that when someone throws they've created a momentary vulnerability on that side, a vulnerability that is proportionate to how technically they threw their punch. When you see a guy just winging bombs, you instantly recognize that he's giving you huge openings to blast him and you do it. Whereas as a beginner all you can think is 'this guy is throwing in this weird way and I don't know what to do', an advanced guy thinks 'this moron is giving me holes I could drive a Mack truck through' and responds accordingly. Hopefully that makes sense. For beginners it's easier to spar with advanced guys and harder to spar with other wild beginners, for advanced guys the only question is how hard do you want to punish wild beginners for being wild.
     
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  14. freaky

    freaky Banned Banned

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    It's harder to deal with because it's new. You're not accustomed to it. Think back, why your teachers say those are bad moves/techniques. Then try to exploit it's weakness.

    For one, wild looping hoops are slower and easier to spot. So you can counter it with straight punches then go back to blocking or slipping them. You should always be able to hit them first.
     
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  15. MaxMMA

    MaxMMA Green Belt

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    This question comes up a lot, more so in the grappling forum. "How do i deal with spazzers? How do i deal with someone "swarming me" or "blitzing me."

    No offense, but if you have to ask this question, you really just need to get back to the gym and get back behind that bag, or back on the mat and keep rolling.

    Blitzing someone that isn't hurt, or spazzing out on someone is the #1 p4p mistake of amateurs. It is the true mark of inexperience and often times fear. Even hyper aggressive professionals don't just carelessly rush in.

    The easiest fights to win are fights were your opponent rushes you at the opening bell. If they are doing nothing but pressing forward then any straight shot you throw is going to land. Straight, circle, straight, circle, straight, circle.

    MMA rules? You don't even have to shoot the double, just change levels and let him run right into your half ass shot.
     
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  16. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    You'd be surprised
     
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  17. Dougall

    Dougall White Belt

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    Sparred him again twice since then and I've tried to take some things on board. I've found i can catch him with uppercuts, because as he throws he doesn't really move even if I move in on him. Caught him to the body a few times too as his arms are always up and out.

    Found this to be true to an extent, he doesn't take hits very well and they get him to back off for a good few seconds.

    Still wouldn't say I'm comfortable with someone who fights like this though, to land my own shots I'm having to walk through his. I can take most of them on the arms and they don't have much power anyway. But it still definitely feels like I'm getting outworked. And while I might be landing the more significant shots, he seems to land the higher volume.
     
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  18. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    One good things with overaggressive forward pressing partners is they walk into everything making things sting more. The downside is they think you're thowing bombs when really they're walking into counters making it hurt more.

    Sounds like you have the same issue most new guys (myself included at the time) have, its not technical, but you do have to learn how to fight. What I mean is, its nice to be pretty, but alot of times you end up having to play in the mud.

    Outside of a technical spar, when you're looking to "win" more, do that.

    When you do end up sparring that way (winning), keep it in mind the entire time. Alot of times when we look to spar technical and work stuff, and gym warrior has ulterior motives, once you get hit with the intensity it throws your rhythm and breathing off, and it causes you to gas faster. They've taken control of the pace, and you're trying to catch up so your breathing ends up irregular. So if you do "feel" or expect a gym war, keep the mindset of it from the get go.
     
  19. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    You mean you're not 500-0 in sparring?
     
  20. Ilk

    Ilk Blue Belt

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    I really had this guy that is a son of a thug in the gym. We were training partners for awhile, but then I tried to escape him as he is not good to train with. He goes hard even on partner drills. The guy also weights as much as I do and is full of muscles, so he is way stronger. I am slightly fat and I weight about 90kg. It is not a fun a 90kg strong person going for the KO with half of his hits even in partner drills.

    Always when sparring with him I went to survival mode and defence mostly as I was afraid to get countered and unless I had some clean hit or my typical jab-low kick, or jab play I did not do much of another offence. The guy once KO-ed me with a brutal kick to the stomach when it was obvious I lost balance and had no way to defend myself against anything, and he sees the opportunity and roundhouses me to the stomach, I missed 1 week training out of pain.

    Since then I ve sparred him only once and I went full on fighting and although I suffered a lot, I made him pay too. It was some brutal fight, going to the mud as j123 said and the other guys did enjoy the show haha :D That day he got a lot of beating as most advanced guys did not pay him any newbie respect too. Someone even bleeded his nose out with a nice cross.

    I have no sparred in this gym anymore as I was changing locations yet again.
     

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