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Damn @Chungungo, sounds you got the guns that turn on nuns
What's the best stand up martial art?
- Thread starter WarRelja
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Sorry , english is not my native tongue, explain that saying XD
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You have arms that swoon women
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I would personally like to see all the great fightes of each style fight with 4 ounce gloves. would be fun.
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Ah I see, had to look what swoon was and yeah my arms receive good comments all the time, too bad I cannot excercise my face.
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Totally , a thai told me once that judo was not a good mix for Muay Thai beause of the judogi but sasae is just like a footblock from Muay Thai !
I almost train Kyokushin once but I don´t like to say oss all the time.
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Paper bags, they ain't just for lunches anymore
The main reason isn't the gi. Its the throws. Judo type throws are illegal in MT, and if its a habit you're used to, it won't serve you well in competition.
A common one is the guy (judoka) catches a kick, and does a trip as his sweep instead of the kick-out. It won't count, and doing it multiple times will have him lose points.
Hip tosses are banned as well.
I see this often when guys who come from MMA gyms try out their first few MT fights, and the throwing/trips screw with them.
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Sasae tsurikomi ashi is one of my favourite techniques so when I did Muay Thai was my number one way to take down from the clinch , besides the grips the mechanics are almost the same to a Muay Thai block you see a lot , judo is not all high amplitude throws...Paper bags, they ain't just for lunches anymore
The main reason isn't the gi. Its the throws. Judo type throws are illegal in MT, and if its a habit you're used to, it won't serve you well in competition.
A common one is the guy (judoka) catches a kick, and does a trip as his sweep instead of the kick-out. It won't count, and doing it multiple times will have him lose points.
Hip tosses are banned as well.
I see this often when guys who come from MMA gyms try out their first few MT fights, and the throwing/trips screw with them.
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I just YouTubed it, yeah thats legal. Thats one of the regular sweeps actually. Its also from a single collar tie (50-50) where majority of the time is spent if you're against a good clincher. Rarely do people get the double collar unless the guy's really green or shitty at MT clinching.
Basically with MT sweeps, the idea is that you use a kick to sweep them and they fall. Tripping isn't a kick out so its illegal. I'm starting to wonder if it was fixed: Hey these guys are good at throwing and tripping us, lets ban their techniques to prove we're better.
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Well I do it arm side and head side (in judo this could be high collar or lapel side) and the concept is similar to sweeps in judo .
I remember once Saenchai or Buakaw did some kind of O Goshi against an american fighter so I guess is a little bit relative.
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I would like to see more Sanda in mma, it would be ideal for fighters with a strong ground game.
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Maybe it shouldn't be so surprising in hindsight, with muay thai fighters liking the clinch but, in pure muay thai, not being trained for takedowns, while kyokushin fighters don't spar with head punches much and conveniently muay thai fighters don't throw many punches. Muay Thai + wrestling would have been interesting.
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I'm actually like this myself. Judo has always felt strange and foreign to me, while wrestling has felt natural, since day 1 I've done things out of instinct and it resembles wrestling more.
I'm good at clinching and cutting off the ring, and I usually get my opponent up on the wall/ropes pretty quick, wrestling comes naturally for me working off the fence. Although it is a stereotype to look down on MT punching, as it might not be crisp and sharp as a boxer's punches, but they still throw heavy hands regardless.
I made that mistake assumption during my 3rd fight, my opponent came from a traditional thai gym and I was spending more time with a boxing training partner during camp so I felt I was better. Turns out, despite not very sharp technique, they still hit hard. So I know its a stereotype, but try not to be ignorant about it assuming their arms are just like swimming noodles being used as a distraction.
To me Judo is like trying to bang a boise dime, but her poon is located on her bicep or something like that.
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Ok I'll try not to think of muay thai fighters like that. I doubt someone with a judo background would easily throw or trip someone with greco wrestling from a MT clinch.
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I am no expert, just a beginner. But in my opinion boxing gives the best fighting IQ you can get. Boxing seems to have a lot more movement, takes angles into a huge consideration and in general seems very complex. When you watch top fighters fight it is an art, a chess match and it just looks different. Ward vs Kovalev, Floyd vs Mannu ... these were great matches with so much going on, that the regular spectator could not understand. Floyd gets so much hate, because the regular spectator can not understand how magnificent his technique and defence are.
In comparison to MT it just looks like 2 people standing in front of each other and trading kicks. Honestly not too much different from the video posted about the karate spar 1 or 2 pages ago. In my opinion every boxer who has conditioned legs to survive the MT kicks can easily out class any MT fighter with just movement. That is a personal opinion do not hate.
Then when I watch MMA commenters speaking excellent footwork for someone so clumsy but just moving actively. Can you imagine them commenting someone like Vasyl? Kickboxing seems a bit more active, there are fighters who know what they are doing. I used to enjoy Masato and the dutch fighters in k1 back in the days. Yet again it does not relly that much on fighting IQ.
Lastly hands. I am not sure why most people under estimate them here. But hands and punches are the main weapon in every fight. The only negative boxing has is that it trains punches and only punches. So if you would like to compete in another sport, you have to condition and learn a lot. However boxing will give according to me the best base for any stand up sport.
In comparison to MT it just looks like 2 people standing in front of each other and trading kicks. Honestly not too much different from the video posted about the karate spar 1 or 2 pages ago. In my opinion every boxer who has conditioned legs to survive the MT kicks can easily out class any MT fighter with just movement. That is a personal opinion do not hate.
Then when I watch MMA commenters speaking excellent footwork for someone so clumsy but just moving actively. Can you imagine them commenting someone like Vasyl? Kickboxing seems a bit more active, there are fighters who know what they are doing. I used to enjoy Masato and the dutch fighters in k1 back in the days. Yet again it does not relly that much on fighting IQ.
Lastly hands. I am not sure why most people under estimate them here. But hands and punches are the main weapon in every fight. The only negative boxing has is that it trains punches and only punches. So if you would like to compete in another sport, you have to condition and learn a lot. However boxing will give according to me the best base for any stand up sport.
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At the higher levels, boxing fight-iq shows. At the lower to intermediate its still not there. Its one reason in ammy MT fighters tend to win more compared to gyms that focus on boxing too much with little MT. After getting decent exp. in and about a high level B or A class fighters (B - 4-9 fights | A - 10+ fights), they start to really shine.
A good thing I will say about boxing, is you learn to cut off the ring and deal with taller opponents early on, I didn't learn it until about a year in of competing. Basically after 3 exhibitions + my 2nd fight (5 events).
I actually liked how PBF got out the ring in a fraction of a second. Pacquiao had him on the ropes, and less than a snap of a finger he was out, and worked from there, now having ring control.
The idea with MT is like being a heavy tank that presses forward like a steamroller, and when things get too jammed, it goes to clinch fighting. Most MT orgs. also take the criteria from boxing that ring control is a category in judging. RC + aggression are tied, so losing on RC will have you losing out on aggression as well. (2/3 categories) Even if you're on the ropes and dominating there, some judges will still say you lost because a lack or RC. I dunno, its really prevalent in America though, there's some obsession with it.
No one actually underestimates hands. Its just there are other tools and ranges, and if a boxer is clueless about it, they'll focus there. If you knew your opponent was completely fresh out of the water with your main strengths, you would exploit it like Hollyood nudes. If you were set on winning, why run the risk of engaging in something you can (even if it may be small) have the change to lose?
I've seen firsthand and fought against people who have little MT and decent boxing and get beaten because of a lack of training in clinch fighting (main reason for their loss). Leg kicks aren't the only thing to condition against, body kicks are a big deterrent if you don't know how to deal with them.
Clinch fighting is nasty and if you are foreign to it, it will cost you.
1) guys who instinctively crossblock to block knees to the midsection This is bad, a teammate of mine fractured his opponent's forearm when he did this
2) trying to body hook punch their way out of a position where their hips cannot generate any power doesn't do much, and worse, might give the clincher a chance to get a double collar (if they were both stuck in the single collar). What they should've learned was to pummel to get a domiant position or to at least escape and work their strengths from the pocket.
This happened to another teammate of mine, both guys were stuck in the single collar, and my friend was working to pummel, but his opponent was tough and didn't let him. Out of nowhere his boxing coach (he had 2 coaches) tells him to body hook, giving up the arm that had bicep control, my teammate secured the dollar collar, then went to town on him and it ended up in a TKO.
3) the basics when getting in the clinch is to go hip to hip, then work from there with your offense. If both guy's hips are away, even if you're getting your head pulled down and don't have the double collar, you can still knee from there. In America, the majority of the gyms are MMA gyms with heavy emphasis on boxing, wrestling, and BJJ in their curriculum. Not too much MT. So alot of them have grappling exp. and going hip to hip without underhooks is a no no that they've been taught from day 1 grappling.
4) Guys will panic if they are new to it, breathe irregularly, sometimes try to muscle out of the clinch while not breathing, and they end up wiping out their gas tank. If they show this weakness, the clincher will seek out to clinch again. This happened in my 2nd exibition, it was by a stroke of luck we ended up in the clinch as I knew how to clinch but not engage it, at the time. When we were there and I realized he was clueless, I found my money shot, and bullshitted everything to get close to clinch up and fleeced his gas tank like a divorce court lawshuit.
Also MT heavily favors taller practitioners given that the taller fighter will dominate 2/3 ranges (kicking + clinching), so its not rare to see taller and stretched out fighters there (eg. 5'9-5'11 at 125lbs). Newer boxers, if they aren't good at fighting against taller opponents, it becomes extremely tough. Given that new fighters are terrible at range and distance management, they don't stay at mid range where they would shine, they usually end up trying to push through and end up trapped inside the clinch.
I know it may seem strange that I'm saying that a taller guy is favorable in the clinch, as the first thought is: close range = shorter guy's territory. Here's why, as a taller guy you usually have a longer reach and your clinch range (depending on how tall) might already be your opponent's punching range, and while clinching, you shooting your hips back to launch the straight knees, you have more ground due to having a longer stride. Those knees with more distance will hurt compared to a short jammed knee strike. Also, for a shorter guy, pummeling out is alot harder and straining on your shoulders compared to someone the same height or shorter.
For a boxer to win, they'd need to adjust to defend kicks, the distance, how to fight in the clinch (staying calm and breathing regularly, while knowing when to work, its like BJJ actually, as the clinch is form grappling), and the lateral movement. In boxing sparring, its okay for me to circle into my opponent's power side (both orthodox, circling to my left), slip punches, and work. With kicks being tossed in the mix, I can't do that. I can slip a cross, but a kick that cuts me in half horizontally I can't, unless I was on the set on Dumbass and purposely want to hurt/damage my ribs.
The thing with competing is, you need to ingrain habits so that your body will run on auto-pilot come fight time. When the adrenaline is surging, and we're in a fight situation, we all lose some cognitive thinking. Its not like someone who's observing from a video on YouTube where we think "We should've pivoted to the left, sweep his lead leg, and blast a knee", if you rarely do things in training and camp, you won't do it in a fight. If in camp you've been drilling 1,2,slip, 3, 2 you'll do that in your fight. Other things you don't do, it won't show. However, if you are a stone cold, calculating individual, it may. I've seen one guy like that, but the guy is a bit of a odd case imo, even then, he's the exception.
It might look like I'm shitting on the sweet science, but I'm not, its just thats the reality I've seen and dealt with, esp. with newer fighters. I think in the long run boxing is very useful, knowing how to cut off the ring, how to counter and deal with hands (while not shutting down), throwing fast hands (everytime I see boxing sparring and mitt work, I'm impressed how fast they are. MT hands look like being trapped in slow mo. compared to them), footwork, and good reaction times are great tools to incorporate for anyone; Boxing imo, is better to transition to MMA than pure MT.
Dutch KB + strong emphasis in clinch fighting is what I feel is the best for MMA striking.
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