What's more important

[ripskater]

"I can name two fighters without strength. Therefore, fighters don't need strength."

You're arguing with your own imaginary position and not with mine, cause my post didn't come close to that.

 

[deadshot138]

Conditioning and it's not even close. Doesn't matter how hard you hit if you're too winded to throw a punch.

 

[Midnighter]

Conditioning and it's not even close. Doesn't matter how hard you hit if you're too winded to throw a punch.

What if you can beat everyone in one punch?

 

[VanteMMA]

What if you can beat everyone in one punch?

Well, even OPM ran a 10K everyday, so.....

 

[SexyMahnaz]

You really think so? I participated in a run called "DHL", which is basicly 5 people on a team, each running 5K. I suck at running btw. It's regular workplaces from all over the capital that signs up and runs outside against each other, then afterwards get piss drunk. The average 5K time is about 25 min pr. person (for the males), and this is just regular people. Several thousand attend. The fastes teams are insane. The nr. 1 team ran 5k in 84 minutes, meaning an average 5K time of 16,8 minutes pr. person lol!

Yeah, @ my local 5km 26 mins was about the middle range of 20-29 year old men. Don't get me wrong for anyone who considers themselves a somewhat serious runner it's very slow, but people definitely self select/exclude for these kinds of things so I don't think 25-26 mins is representative of the average young non running male.

 

[miaou]

So strong guy wins, because he's get a win and a tie.

Yes.

Assuming other factors (reflexes, speed, technique, IQ, etc.) are equal, I think it's quite clear that physical strength is more important in a fight than endurance.

Endurance won't matter much if the first couple of minutes of engagement the other guy can manhandle you. At best it can help you avoid engagement.

 

[miaou]

I doubt prime Nick Diaz or Anderson Silva were impressive with their squat numbers.

You are not a prime Anderson Silva. You don't have his reflexes or his speed or his technical prowess. Neither does 99.9% of the human population.

If you were fighting against opponents who are vastly slower than you, then yes, strength doesn't really matter. But using that argument to suggest that strength is not important in fighting is silly.

 

[Sano]

Yeah, @ my local 5km 26 mins was about the middle range of 20-29 year old men. Don't get me wrong for anyone who considers themselves a somewhat serious runner it's very slow, but people definitely self select/exclude for these kinds of things so I don't think 25-26 mins is representative of the average young non running male.

I see your point about exclusion, but this race I'm talking about is basicly just whoever and age vary from about 18 to 45ish and still the averge time is 25 min. We're talking more than 100.000 people who participates during the course of 5 days, spread across more than 3000 businesses, and that's just in the capital alone. Most people have never done a race before or actively trained running for long periods of time, including my whole team besides 1 guy. Very average guys.

I guess it has something to do with location as well. People over here are generally not in terrible shape and relatively healthy. Most young people practice sports of some kind as well and soccer is very popular, so there's that.

Anyway, for someone like Viada who practices and preaches running, even if he's 220 lbs, a 26 min 5k is very slow.

 

[miaou]

Also, you know what?

Real life doesn't have weight divisions. Give me a high-level bantamweight fighter with incredible stamina and a high-level heavyweight fighter with vastly inferior stamina (but vastly superior strength) and I'll gladly give you 20 to 1 odds on the bantamweight fighter.

 

[miaou]

Anyway, for someone like Viada who practices and preaches running, even if he's 220 lbs, a 26 min 5k is very slow.

A few years ago, Viada's running claims were the subject of a bunch of threads over at letsrun.com forums. Posters there were very thorough, looking through all his claims in various interviews and online posts, and looking up all his documented results in any type of official competition. Apparently, not one bit of evidence existed that Viada was better than even an average runner and the consensus was that he could not have possibly run anywhere near the numbers he claimed. At a later time all those posts were deleted and any subsequent threads started on the subject were promptly locked down without any explanation given (maybe due to legal action or something).

 

[Sano]

Yes.

Assuming other factors (reflexes, speed, technique, IQ, etc.) are equal, I think it's quite clear that physical strength is more important in a fight than endurance.

Endurance won't matter much if the first couple of minutes of engagement the other guy can manhandle you. At best it can help you avoid engagement.

Meh it depends.

If endurance is the persons ability to carry their strength through the fight then that matters a lot. If you've ever grappled or striked with someone who is strong, but not well conditioned, you'll be surprised at how quickly they feel weak. If everything else is equal, which it never will be, then again it depends. If the stronger person could get the finish early and they'd have the advantage, but if they fatigued quickly trying to get it then their strength advantage becomes null as it saps away. They could pace themselves, but the better contioned fighter could put a pace on them and make them exert themselves. If someone is very evenly matched then it's usually easier to stall the action and drag the fight out, so gameplanning would play a factor as well.

Are we talking striking or wrestling or MMA? I'll favour a well conditioned striker, with mediocre strength over the strong striker with mediocre conditioning. Grappling I'll favour the stronger one untill he gets tired. Both strength, balance and endurance matters a lot, more or less tied into the fighters style.

Also, you know what?

Real life doesn't have weight divisions. Give me a high-level bantamweight fighter with incredible stamina and a high-level heavyweight fighter with vastly inferior stamina (but vastly superior strength) and I'll gladly give you 20 to 1 odds on the bantamweight fighter.

That is not just strength though, that's weight, height, reach, chin, power.

 

[ripskater]

You are not a prime Anderson Silva. You don't have his reflexes or his speed or his technical prowess. Neither does 99.9% of the human population.

If you were fighting against opponents who are vastly slower than you, then yes, strength doesn't really matter. But using that argument to suggest that strength is not important in fighting is silly.

I'm not saying strength doesn't matter. I'm saying your max squat numbers don't mean all that much for for fighting.

Silva and Diaz will be strong and will feel strong if you went against them in the cage.

Your numbers in the squat are different than the strength that may be required of you in the cage.

 

[miaou]

That is not just strength though, that's weight, height, reach, chin, power.

My post addressed the "real world", where there are no weight classes.

You can't change your height, or your reach, or your chin. You can increase your strength and your power by putting on extra muscle mass, though.

When I was kick-boxing, I used to weight 10 kg less than I do now. I also used to be much weaker. I'm pretty sure if I were to strike or grapple with my older self I would have a huge advantage now.

 

[miaou]

Silva and Diaz will be strong and will feel strong if you went against them in the cage.

Your numbers in the squat are different than the strength that may be required of you in the cage.

In order to assess strength, you need to quantify it, though.

When trying to quantify leg strength, if you don't want to use the squat, you can use the deadlift, or you can use the leg press, or you can use some other quantifiable exercise. Likewise when it comes to upper body strength: if you don't want to use the bench press you can use some other exercise.

But if your only way of defining strength is "they will feel strong if you went against them in the cage", then you are probably confusing leverage use (aka "technique"), for actual muscle strength.

 

[ripskater]

In order to compare strength, you need to quantify it, though.

When trying to quantify leg strength, if you don't want to use the squat, you can use the leg press. Or you can use some other quantifiable exercise. Likewise when it comes to upper body strength.

If your only way of defining strength is "they will feel strong if you went against them in the cage", then you are probably confusing leverage use (aka "technique"), for actual muscle strength.

You don't have to quantify anything. And I don't believe you can quantify what I'm talking about. But you know it when you go up against it. Listen to a Chris Sommers interview and he can explain it better than I. Gym rats vs Jungle Cats.

But it explains how guys with unimpressive squat numbers will be very strong in the cage.

 

[miaou]

You don't have to quantify anything. And I don't believe you can quantify what I'm talking about. But you know it when you go up against it.

But it explains how guys with unimpressive squat numbers will be very strong in the cage.

You can quantify strength. For instance, you can quantify upper-body strength via the barbell bench press, or via a bench press machine (for a less technique-demanding task), or via a weighted pull-up (if you think pulling strength is more important that pushing strength), or via a grip dynamometer (if you think grip strength is more consequential to fighting than the previous), or via a cable or a cybex machine (if you think shoulder rotation strength is more important), etc., or via a combination of the above.


If you don't believe you can quantify what you're talking about, then a) you are making an unfalsifiable claim (and, therefore, an inconsequential/useless one), and b) you are probably lacking understanding of the distinction between strength and technique.

 

[ripskater]

If you don't believe you can quantify what you're talking about, then a) you are making an unfalsifiable claim (and, therefore, an inconsequential/useless one), and b) you are probably lacking understanding of the distinction between strength and technique.

I don't expect you or many other people in this forum to accept what I'm saying. So I'm not surprised to hear you say this is inconsequential and useless.

 

[flikerstance]

so at the end of the day most of you would rather have decent cardio and super tim kennedy strength than be like cody mckenzie strength but have the cardio of frankie edgar huh.

 

[Ilk]

I dont get it. So you are training in a pro boxing gym, bjj and wrestle and you do not get enough cardio?
I am not sure what you do in these gyms then. I hit pads the other day for 8 rounds and the pad holder sweat my ass. I get it my cardio is weak, but I am pretty sure doing about 10 rounds per training and then few rounds on your own can give you pretty decent cardio training. Keep in mind you can also track your intensity in shadow boxing or bag work. For example if you do 40 hits and 40 movements (slip, duck, weave) per round this week, you can do 50 each next week and increase the intensity. If that does not feel good enough you can add up some burpees.
I have wrestled as a kid and it is god damn taxing too. I remember our coach gave us about 3x3 mins rounds in the end to free wrestle and these were insanely intensive.
I have not bjj so no clue how training in there goes.

Considering all that you can then add up 4 strenght trainings per week pretty easy if your body can get into that. 1 day bench press, 1 day military press, 1 day squads, 1 day deadlifts as the main exercise. Adding some supporting and or explosive work that to get you to 1 hour per training.

 

[flikerstance]

I dont get it. So you are training in a pro boxing gym, bjj and wrestle and you do not get enough cardio?
I am not sure what you do in these gyms then. I hit pads the other day for 8 rounds and the pad holder sweat my ass. I get it my cardio is weak, but I am pretty sure doing about 10 rounds per training and then few rounds on your own can give you pretty decent cardio training. Keep in mind you can also track your intensity in shadow boxing or bag work. For example if you do 40 hits and 40 movements (slip, duck, weave) per round this week, you can do 50 each next week and increase the intensity. If that does not feel good enough you can add up some burpees.
I have wrestled as a kid and it is god damn taxing too. I remember our coach gave us about 3x3 mins rounds in the end to free wrestle and these were insanely intensive.
I have not bjj so no clue how training in there goes.

Considering all that you can then add up 4 strenght trainings per week pretty easy if your body can get into that. 1 day bench press, 1 day military press, 1 day squads, 1 day deadlifts as the main exercise. Adding some supporting and or explosive work that to get you to 1 hour per training.

yes when im training hard ofcourse im in good condition but you obviously do not fight at a high level or youd know you really need a solid conditioning program especially when you are a top grappler and its hard to find guys who can push you.