What's more fundamental to success in Kickboxing/MT- Boxing or Kicking?

[Superhet]

If speaking pure boxing vs pure kicking with nothing else, then boxing is more fundamental in thai/kickboxing, mostly because of the small arena size. You can only take a few steps before you hit the ropes, it's impossible to use the kind of movement you use in (proper) MMA arenas and once you get to the ropes, the boxer needs less space to work and is more mobile. That's the reason why Holzken can more or less simply walk down Raymond. He couldn't do that as easily if he was facing him in an MMA arena, which in that regard, is closer to "real" fighting.

Secondary reasons are that kicks require and take away balance (by going on one leg) to use while rooting you to your position, while punches don't necessarily do so, and that kicks have a specific range they work in while punches can transition fluidly between ranges. This means that the kicker has to execute his game more or less perfectly, or he's going to let the boxer get in on and stay on him and that'll probably be the end of it. Same reason why both a kicker and puncher face heavier consequences from the actions of a wrestler than vice versa.

 

[spacetime]

Adressing an earlier point in the thread:I have trained ITF TaeKwonDo for 3 and half years and I still can't verbalize how to block kicks effectively. It's never been a major issue for me. So why should it for a boxer?

Isn't it more an experience thing, than a skilled craft? I don't think there are clear directives how to parry kicks..

Please enlighten me if there are ...

 

[spacetime]

If speaking pure boxing vs pure kicking with nothing else, then boxing is more fundamental in thai/kickboxing, mostly because of the small arena size. You can only take a few steps before you hit the ropes, it's impossible to use the kind of movement you use in (proper) MMA arenas and once you get to the ropes, the boxer needs less space to work and is more mobile. That's the reason why Holzken can more or less simply walk down Raymond. He couldn't do that as easily if he was facing him in an MMA arena, which in that regard, is closer to "real" fighting.

Secondary reasons are that kicks require and take away balance (by going on one leg) to use while rooting you to your position, while punches don't necessarily do so, and that kicks have a specific range they work in while punches can transition fluidly between ranges. This means that the kicker has to execute his game more or less perfectly, or he's going to let the boxer get in on and stay on him and that'll probably be the end of it. Same reason why both a kicker and puncher face heavier consequences from the actions of a wrestler than vice versa.

Interesting. Is this analyzis biased towards western boxing in particular or do you think point fighting style Karate punching would still beat pure kicking?

 

[spacetime]

well good footwork helps with evasion and cutting angles and shit.

I would say proper understanding of distancing also gets the job done, and this can definately be part of a natural talent for boxing.

Also, I challenge you to cut angles and distance against a demon kicker. It just isn't possible if you don't kick his ass back.

 

[RichardN7]

Who would fare better in the ring as rookie, all else equal, a natural talent at boxing with mediocre kicks, or a talented kicker with mediocre hands? And let's say the rookies face each other, who would you bet on? Both are conditioned to withstand low kicks. Same cardio, same weight, height, etc

Which skill is more fundamental in your opinion?

How many bouts in Muay Thai are decided by KO with punches compared to kicks?

There are good arguments to be made for either one. Range control - kicker. Close range proficiency - boxer. If the kicker is able to dictate range well enough, he won't need the boxing. If the boxer is able to cut range well enough, he won't need to kick.

Punches definitely trump kicks in my experience.
Kicks are just an addition. If you set up your hands, then you can afford to kick. Otherwise you’ll just get punished for it.
Thongchai got destroyed by Murthel due to shit boxing for example.

 

[William Huggins]

When the kicker has the stronger clinch game they win.

Boxing in MT is more of a medium range weapon, unlike in Boxing where it performs as a short range weapon as well.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

Strange critera. Plenty of GOAT boxers who had nonexistent footwork and head movement, Foreman being the best example. How many times did you see him bob and weave or use advanced footwork?

Can someone ban this fool? This is pretty ignorant foreman was very good at cutting off the ring.

 

[spacetime]

Can someone ban this fool? This is pretty ignorant foreman was very good at cutting off the ring.

Foreman did not possess great footwork or head movement. Ali described him as a zoombie prior to their fight and even imitated how he moves.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Ali was trash talking him to hype tickets for the fight.

Foreman was good with slips and he knew his angles, he just kept his movement very concise, efficient and deliberate, which is smart for anyone and especially for a big guy like him. You don't have to hop around the ring, do the Ali Shuffle or do the wriggle worm like sweetpea to be effective in your movement.

The smaller the movement, the better. This is what boxing gets right that most other arts get completely wrong.

George was a high level boxer throughout his career and his success proved it. He didn't get his face all broken up and disfigured because he didn't just eat punches like you are suggesting.

 

[InternetHero]

Can someone ban this fool? This is pretty ignorant foreman was very good at cutting off the ring.

Indeed.

Cutting off the ring, setting up for big shots without losing balance, and keeping stable on defense and ready to move away from counter attacks, or in to finish.

 

[spacetime]

George was a high level boxer throughout his career and his success proved it. He didn't get his face all broken up and disfigured because he didn't just eat punches like you are suggesting.

I suggest you rewatch some of his fights against equally matched opponents. Foreman ate a lot of shots against Ali, Lyle and Holyfield. His chin was however impregnable and his ringside intelligence improved with age, but he was never a great mover. He was just big and relentless.

 

[spacetime]

Ali was trash talking him to hype tickets for the fight.
.

No he wasn't. Ali also pointed out that the guy has power and was consistent in his opinion on Foremans lack of finesse long before they every fought. Alis impersonation of Foremans footwork was only partially goofing. You could CLEARLY see who he was impersonating.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

well, most of the muay thai champs have been great kickers so I guess that answers your question.

 

[spacetime]

well, most of the muay thai champs have been great kickers so I guess that answers your question.

Not really. Kickers orient towards Muay Thai and boxers towards boxing. If boxing didn't exist, maybe all those boxing talents would knock peoples head off in Muay Thai competitions instead.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Not really. Kickers orient towards Muay Thai and boxers towards boxing. If boxing didn't exist, maybe all those boxing talents would knock peoples head off in Muay Thai competitions instead.

if boxing didnt exist they wouldnt know boxing tho

 

[spacetime]

if boxing didnt exist they wouldnt know boxing tho

I am saying that talented punchers naturally gravitate towards boxing. If boxings gyms and the sport ceased to exist, Muay Thai data would be more meaningful, how important punching actually is.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

I am saying that talented punchers naturally gravitate towards boxing. If boxings gyms and the sport ceased to exist, Muay Thai data would be more meaningful, how important punching actually is.

Its pretty easy for a real muay thai guy to shut down a boxer in their rule set.

 

[spacetime]

Its pretty easy for a real muay thai guy to shut down a boxer in their rule set.

We don't know that. Boxers who tried out K1 as a start failed to adequately condition their legs for low kicks. The fight didn't even begin before their legs gave out.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

We don't know that. Boxers who tried out K1 as a start failed to adequately condition their legs for low kicks. The fight didn't even begin before their legs gave out.

I'm talking about real muay thai..... in thailand.

 

[spacetime]

I'm talking about real muay thai..... in thailand.

You don't know that either for exactly same reason. I know for a fact that golden gloves champions have beat the living daylights out of amateur thaiboxers in Open style torneys. But it's possible golden gloves boxing was higher level than the grade of the thaiboxers