What martial art do military combatives employ | Page 3

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Jspahn, Mar 10, 2017.

  1. MadSquabbles500 Gold Belt

    MadSquabbles500
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    In all those situation, if you try non-deadly force, and something goes wrong you would have to escalate and possibly fight for your life right.

    I did not think of trying to restrain or hold people at bay when they are not actually threatening or meaning to do harm as part of H2H/defensive tactics. I thought H2H was strictly combat against deadly enemy.

    If you need to restrain someone or capture someone, yet this someone responds with deadly force, what could unarmed, less lethal empty hand options can you possibly have?
     
    #41
  2. Tebowned Boise Dime.

    Tebowned
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    A buddy of mine did BJJ with Noah Thomas from The ultimate fighter overseas.
     
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  3. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    People are stupid; they're going to push back, and having no options but the nuclear option every time you get some push back is a good way to end up with lots of body bags.

    Mercy is a virtue of the strong.
     
    #43
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  4. Bayonet Blue Belt

    Bayonet
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    Yes, if the situation escalates, your level of force escalates with it.

    H2H comprises everything that may arise in a H2H situation. Everything from empty hand control to bayoneting a guy. Depending on your Rules of Engagement, you may be more free or more constrained in your use of violence to solve situations.

    If someone responds with deadly force, you shoot them, stab them, call in an air strike, whatever. You don't rely on H2H if the other guy is full on attacking you with weapons, unless you're on some peacekeeping mission and everyone above you in the Chain of Command is having a beauracratic gong-show competition. (this happens very frequently, btw)/

    I'm really not sure what answer you're looking for with all this. All the military CQC I know of is comprised of general purpose striking, grappling, knife/bayonet, rifle-as-club stuff meant to fill those possible scenarios in between 'standing around talking' and fire-fights. If you're using any H2H stuff,it's because A) some cunt is being a cunt, but not enough of a cunt to shoot or B) you are caught weaponless and altogether fucked, and want to die hard and buy your friends some time to get unfucked.
     
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  5. JosephDredd Silver Belt

    JosephDredd
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    You're living in a fantasy land. you haven't answered a single question I've asked. You're imagining anything that's needed to try to paint a scenario that makes your ideas sound reasonable.
     
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  6. MadSquabbles500 Gold Belt

    MadSquabbles500
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    I can say the same for you. You are the one making the claim MMA fighters or wrestlers can sufficiently defend against something other than MMA or wrestling better than anyone.
     
    #46
  7. BCNASH Orange Belt

    BCNASH
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    There is a different mind set, and adrenaline level, between fighting in a cage in your shorts and knowing you will go home at night with a concussion or broken limb at worse and fighting for your life and the lives of your men. Military combatives programs are boiled down to the easiest to remember techniques with the highest probability of success that can be learned with minimal reps. You can train for being punched in the face, but there is NO realistic way to replicate a literal fight for your life; hence, it must be easy and taught at the lowest common denominator so that all of your man can grasp the concepts.
     
    #47
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  8. JosephDredd Silver Belt

    JosephDredd
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    You're making the claim that a run-of-the-mill prison guard's training will have him just as (or more) prepared than a professional fighter's training and then started modifying your claim with "I'm sure he'd seek outside, additional training" when you realized how much you're mythologizing things. Dog Brothers? RBSD guys? yes, better than an MMA fighter. average dude with minimal training? i can't see it and you're not answering when i ask what magic you think he'd do if you tried to stab him in the eye.
     
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  9. Protectandserve Brown Belt

    Protectandserve
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    I got level one certified for Modern Army Combatives back on 2009. Its a very back course designed to teach soldiers basic fight skills. You get a lot of people who have never been in a fight in their life in the military.

    Think of what all high schools teach, don't fight, tell a teacher, etc.
    The army has to teach basic physical aggression to many soldiers.

    If you have a few weeks of MMA, BJJ, Kickboxing, etc you know way more than what is taught.
     
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  10. MadSquabbles500 Gold Belt

    MadSquabbles500
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    I did not modify anything. If a prison guard seeks training, I dont think that makes him any less a prison guard.

    You refuted the claim someone else made, and I am supporting the other guy.

    I really dont know what the approriate response be to someone stabbing you in the eye, but I also dont think the magical answer is MMA either. I mean what will a run of the mill MMA fighter do? Fill the room with so many uppercuts, the attacker cannot get in any cuts? Or will these MMA athletes be so quick, they double leg, get sidemount, mount, then ground and pound the attacker unconscious before getting stabbed even once?

    I tend to think if someone trains specifically for something, they be better prepared for that specific incident than someone training for something else.
     
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  11. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    That's precisely the point; there usually isn't any specific training going on, so of course someone who has more combat sports experience in general will tend to do better in such and such a case.
     
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  12. JosephDredd Silver Belt

    JosephDredd
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    My apologies.

    I agree with you for the most part. i don't think prison guards get the training you think they do. imagine the average bus driver with a handful of hours of knife defense training
     
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  13. Bayonet Blue Belt

    Bayonet
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    Exactly. It's the Dummies Guide to Fighting Desperately, designed for conscripts and volunteers who may have never before been in a fight, and who are only going to get about a weeks worth of training.

    In the CQC program (Canada), Infantry recruits get about 40 hours to become qualified. then maybe a couple days per year to practice it, depending on what their leadership likes to do. That's a single work week in which you have to learn a base of striking, grappling, hand held bayonet, fixed bayonet, and sentry removal (murder a dude) techniques. That is barely any time at all, so you're really only going to teach the most rudimentary surface level stuff.

    The guys who came into the program with a background in some combat sport were leagues ahead of the dudes who had nothing, even in the odd stuff like pugil stick fighting or fucking around with rubber knives. Combat skills and combat IQ are very transferable.

    Personally, I'd like to see the combat arms embrace fighting sports more. A couple hours of Judo, wrestling, kickboxing, etc. per week is just as good of a workout as the usual pavement pounding.
     
    #53
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  14. Jinn *** Kicker

    Jinn
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    Mostly weapons, and the hand to hand portion is based on the bare minimum engagement required to get back to your weapon(s) if you fucked up bad enough to be without it/them.

    Think about how military combat actually works, fighting with your bare hands increases your chances of dying by the second in that kind of situation, whether you're a navy seal or Jon Jones.

    Unless they go out of their way to train at an mma gym most military guys - even marines/seals/rangers/etc, aren't going to be particularly badass hand to hand fighters. How much time do you realistically think they spend on training their absolute last resort?
     
    #54
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  15. sakfjgadsyukgf White Belt

    sakfjgadsyukgf
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    Yup, this guy pretty much nailed it. People have this fantasy that all modern military encounters are like the Battle of the Bulge or Iwo Jima or something. It's not, there are tons of peacekeeping missions, or low-intensity/guerilla warfare, or commandos are capturing a high-value target for interrogation (which the US seems to have done a ton of in Iraq & Afghanistan). Having grappling training to be able to subdue combatants without killing them is pretty key.

    I saw Jocko Willink, who was a Navy SEAL team leader and is also a BJJ black belt, say on Twitter he's used BJJ to subdue someone on a mission. I don't think it gets too much more legit than that.

    I also get the impression (as a non-military guy) that the armed forces uses combat sports training to basically build fighting spirit & courage. The infantry are a bunch of tough guys in their late teens and twenties, of course they have testosterone and energy up the wazoo. Combatives is a good outlet for that I would imagine
     
    #55
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  16. Toothless King Brown Belt

    Toothless King
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    I have level 4 Army combative. I am certify to teach AC level 1,2.

    Army combative instills confidence, aggressiveness, and warrior spirits in the soldiers. Let's be realistic here you are not going to pull guard or do a high roundhouse kick while wearing 30-50 lbs of gears
     
    #56
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  17. Thrawn33 JUST BLEED Belt

    Thrawn33
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    Military approved unarmed combat is good fun and a great outlet for all the jacked up testosterone levels of your average boot. It's fun to blow off steam on the guy in the Redman suit

    Course when the jacked up boot is introduced to the earth by a good haraigoshi from a seasoned judoka in Redman suit...reality sets in.

    That's what I've seen anyway. Coast Guard so our focus is more LEO type training.
     
    #57
  18. Evenflow80 Orange Belt

    Evenflow80
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    I have 3 active duty Marine white belts in my gym that started a recently (after I did by a few months) and they are no different than any new person starting bjj at our gym. Frankly they don't even seem to have very good cardio which surprised me.

    I truly do think people exaggerate how amazing people in the military are.
     
    #58
  19. Toothless King Brown Belt

    Toothless King
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    I agree.

    I used to roll with a world class marathon runner and I ragdolled him. I truly do think people exaggerate how amazing marathoners are.
     
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  20. n.diazismylife1999 Brown Belt

    n.diazismylife1999
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    That is one of the primary functions, yes. H2H is an aggression and a self-confidence exercise.
     
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