What is the deal with Holly Holm

[II Muchetto II]

I think winklejohn has had a negative effect on her boxing, she has added some great kicks to her game and american kickboxing styke movement like winklejohn used to be famous for but they havent done a good job of embracing the skill set she turned up with. I dont think she benefits from the game plan type system that jackson/winklejohn always go for.

I understand that she wants to stay standing and avoid the take down, but whats the point of standing if you are not gonna let your hands go more often.

 

[aerius]

If you go to the extreme (to the very best) take RIgondeaux. he throws a shit load of left hands with very little jabbing (even if he does have a decent right hook) but he still sets the left punches up. Either by pawing or with right hooks or with footwork or with feints. But he does set them up. Holly Holm doesn't even have great footwork i n that sense she cna move but only if her opponent pressures her. She has no OFFENSIVE footwork she just stands there and throws single left straight without attacking on an angle

You don't even have to go up to that level. Let's look at the other fighter in Holly's division with pro boxing fights, and who also happens to be a southpaw. Valentina's setups are way ahead of Holly's, she uses feints & pressure positioning to draw hasty punches from her opponent, then slips them and follows the retraction back to hammer in counters. Or she'll use a lead hook to knock the guard out of position then slam in the left straight behind it, and other times she'll just outright abuse her speed advantage.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

@AndyMaBobs @ARIZE

It's not that she leads with straight rights it's that she doesn't set them up. Nor does she explode forward and just go for it like Roy Jones or someone like that would do. She just stands in regukar striking range and throws single straight. Sometimes she sets them up with he rleft kicks or vice versa like Crocop but prue boxing wise she does not set them up.
If you go to the extreme (to the very best) take RIgondeaux. he throws a shit load of left hands with very little jabbing (even if he does have a decent right hook) but he still sets the left punches up. Either by pawing or with right hooks or with footwork or with feints. But he does set them up. Holly Holm doesn't even have great footwork i n that sense she cna move but only if her opponent pressures her. She has no OFFENSIVE footwork she just stands there and throws single left straight without attacking on an angle

You don't really need to set up a straight left when you're a southpaw. Rigondeax is probably the best boxer around, I'll give you that, but the pawing he does is less about the set up itself and more about surprisingly his opponent with a rhythm change. He paws slowly and then surprises with a fast punch. If you look at a guy like Lomachenko, while he's great at... everything, he's very happy to throw a straight left with no set up, so did Pacquaio, and Mayweather threw naked rear straights against his southpaw opponents.

It's very rare you see a good southpaw jabber, Lomachenko and Pacquiao are two that do come to mind, but as a southpaw you don't really need to jab - it can make the difference between a good southpaw and a great one, but in order to be a good southpaw, a jab isn't nearly as needed as if you were an orthodox fighter.

Also it's not true that she has no offensive footwork. She takes a dominant angle on nearly every kick or left straight she throws. That is offensive footwork, putting her in position to attack, it becomes defensive footwork when she steps through after the strike. She uses quick steps in to fake her opponent out and bring their guard up high, and she uses that as the set up to her side kick to the body. Using defensive and offensive footwork as one is part of what makes a good boxer.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I think winklejohn has had a negative effect on her boxing, she has added some great kicks to her game and american kickboxing styke movement like winklejohn used to be famous for but they havent done a good job of embracing the skill set she turned up with. I dont think she benefits from the game plan type system that jackson/winklejohn always go for.

I understand that she wants to stay standing and avoid the take down, but whats the point of standing if you are not gonna let your hands go more often.

You know she's been with Winklejohn her entire career right? He knows her skill set inside and out, and has made probably every gameplan she's ever had. You make it sound like she just went there to train MMA

 

[ARIZE]

but as a southpaw you don't really need to jab

My understanding is that southpaws use their jabs mostly to nullify the opponents jabs, since when they both throw it, it "bumps" into each others strike. The southpaw is experienced, and used to that, while for the orthodox it can be very frustrating (that's another reason why in greater sports like MT, you don't need jabs)

Anyway, @AndyMaBobs and @PivotPunch , i will leave the rest of this discussion to you, and won't disagree with anyone, since i am not educated enough in this style (punches...pffff...what a waste of time) and not familiar with holly's past in boxing (boxing....pffff...what a waste of time)

 

[AndyMaBobs]

My understanding is that southpaws use their jabs mostly to nullify the opponents jabs, since when they both throw it, it "bumps" into each others strike. The southpaw is experienced, and used to that, while for the orthodox it can be very frustrating (that's another reason why in greater sports like MT, you don't need jabs)

Anyway, @AndyMaBobs and @PivotPunch , i will leave the rest of this discussion to you, and won't disagree with anyone, since i am not educated enough in this style (punches...pffff...what a waist of time) and not familiar with holly's past in boxing (boxing....pffff...what a waist of time)

Never change baby p>

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Ill echo the sentiments that winklejohns training is limited. All his fighters plateau rather quickly IMO and dont ever add anything new to their game. Condits a perfect example of that. great fighter but hes been fighting the same way since the wec. Same combos same defense etc,etc never adds anything new.

 

[PivotPunch]

You don't really need to set up a straight left when you're a southpaw. Rigondeax is probably the best boxer around, I'll give you that, but the pawing he does is less about the set up itself and more about surprisingly his opponent with a rhythm change. He paws slowly and then surprises with a fast punch. If you look at a guy like Lomachenko, while he's great at... everything, he's very happy to throw a straight left with no set up, so did Pacquaio, and Mayweather threw naked rear straights against his southpaw opponents.

It's very rare you see a good southpaw jabber, Lomachenko and Pacquiao are two that do come to mind, but as a southpaw you don't really need to jab - it can make the difference between a good southpaw and a great one, but in order to be a good southpaw, a jab isn't nearly as needed as if you were an orthodox fighter.

Also it's not true that she has no offensive footwork. She takes a dominant angle on nearly every kick or left straight she throws. That is offensive footwork, putting her in position to attack, it becomes defensive footwork when she steps through after the strike. She uses quick steps in to fake her opponent out and bring their guard up high, and she uses that as the set up to her side kick to the body. Using defensive and offensive footwork as one is part of what makes a good boxer.

You don't "need" a jab at any rate though it helps even if it's less valuable as or against a southpaw. How is Rigo changing the rythm not a "set up"? it helps to set up other punches including the lead left. Mayweather throws naked straight rights also against orthodox opponents. i never said the jab is a necessity but it's not like she has other things. She throws naked straight punches but without the athletic commitment of a Roy Jones or even a Mayweather. And Mayweather has many other strikes including a jab both to the head and the body to set up the straight right.

Holm has nothing in terms of hands to set up that shot.

She doesn't really have offensive footwork. Well yeah as you said she kinda has but not really. She has it when her opponents rush her then she moves and cna attack while moving away. When her opponents back up she hits air and even when her opponents stand still she hits mostly air.

Misha Tate is not a great striker and she is no Ali she did not move in tricky ways she simply stood back and did not bumrush Holm and that was enough so that Holm's offensive limitations showed. She did not attack at angles the times she actually dared to attack she hopped forward nervously and threw a straight left......like 2 out of 10 times she actually connected with that.

@ARIZE boxers are the master race so I'm not even going to respond to this

 

[II Muchetto II]

You know she's been with Winklejohn her entire career right? He knows her skill set inside and out, and has made probably every gameplan she's ever had. You make it sound like she just went there to train MMA

I didnt know that tbh. I just assumed from watching some of her boxing fights and seeing how she is now, more of a above the waist style kickboxing counter striker, i assumed winklejohn had had a influence in what appeared to be a decline in her boxing skills.

Ive gone off jackson camp since hearing jon jones talk about them treating the ufc fighters as a money making tool to let them train along side novices with money etc. I remember him saying him and holy were expected to spar with people who was paying good money to train with them but they had no control in sparring trying to land a big shot on a ufc fighter. The training sessions sounded like a joke. I dont know how true that is but it put me off them a bit.

But no, i didnt know wink was her origanal boxing coach. Respect to him for that. They do seem to have a good coach student bond to be fair.

I am a fan of holy, just always seems frustrating to watch her. I would like to see her mire aggressive. Its starting to cost her and almost has cost her shitty desisions

 

[ARIZE]

boxers are the master race so I'm not even going to respond to this

Ha...hope you didn't hurt your fist while typing that. You should use gloves and bandages to make sure you wont get any damages at your precious weapons...
I joke, i really respect boxing...between it and aikido, i would even probably choose boxing...probably...if it's cheaper...
(I'm bored sorry, I will try not to respond to any other provocation, this thread is interesting, even if it's about pillow fighting...)

 

[PivotPunch]

Ha...hope you didn't hurt your fist while typing that. You should use gloves and bandages to make sure you wont get any damages at your precious weapons...
I joke, i really respect boxing...between it and aikido, i would even probably choose boxing...probably...if it's cheaper...
(I'm bored sorry, I will try not to respond to any other provocation, this thread is interesting, even if it's about pillow fighting...)

 

[aerius]

My understanding is that southpaws use their jabs mostly to nullify the opponents jabs, since when they both throw it, it "bumps" into each others strike. The southpaw is experienced, and used to that, while for the orthodox it can be very frustrating (that's another reason why in greater sports like MT, you don't need jabs)

Are you saying that the great Samart is doing it wrong?
Please tell me this isn't so!

 

[ARIZE]

One exception of a fighter, doesn't make it a rule for the entire MT... I don't understand whats going on in this site...every time we talk about MT, someone has to bring an exception to prove the "usefulness" of punching...And the worst part is that most of the times, those people train MT, not boxing...Is AndyMabobs paying you all to have a laugh at me? Is this some kind of a sick joke? It's not funny anymore man...

And for PivotPunch...that was a low blow man...Do you want me to post highlights of Rocky Balboa, the GOAT of boxing?

PS: Yeah, sorry, i dint really manage not to respond to provocation...

 

[j123]

One exception of a fighter, doesn't make it a rule for the entire MT... I don't understand whats going on in this site...every time we talk about MT, someone has to bring an exception to prove the "usefulness" of punching...And the worst part is that most of the times, those people train MT, not boxing...Is @AndyMaBobs paying you all to have a laugh at me? Is this some kind of a sick joke? It's not funny anymore man...

And for PivotPunch...that was a low blow man...Do you want me to post highlights of Rocky Balboa, the GOAT of boxing?

PS: Yeah, sorry, i dint really manage not to respond to provocation...

Why do you hate punching so much @ARIZE ? Do you have 4 legs instead 2 arms + 2 legs

 

[ARIZE]

Punches in MT are mostly there to set up kicks, clinch entries etc...Long combos, light jabs, body punches (specially with level drops), long distances hooks, short hooks, uppercuts, excessive head movements...make no sense in MT...
Either they are useless (light single jabs), either they are dangerous (level changes}, either you have better options (short hooks vs elbows).

That's the way MT is, that's it. OFF COURSE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, but it's not the rule.

MT has good answers/alternatives to most of this techniques. That's why, MOST OF THE TIMES, when you put MT vs KB, KB gets destroyed...That's why every time, they change the rules so that the Nak Muay is in a disadvantage: No low kicks, or no long clinches, or no clinches with both hands, no elbows, or no knees to the face etc...But you never hear: No uppercuts, or no 6 punches combo. So fak punches...

I also don't like the logic of striking someone with the weakest part of the human body (fingers+knuckles) and that you have to put a pillow on it to protect it vs striking him with elbows/knees/shins... It doesn't really make sense to me.

If people like to punch, good for them: Just keep it in your lesser sports. Don't bring that shit here, trying to spoil the purity, the perfection of MT...

And to answer you question, j123, I have 3 legs and 2 arms (that one was too easy to pass on)

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You don't "need" a jab at any rate though it helps even if it's less valuable as or against a southpaw. How is Rigo changing the rythm not a "set up"? it helps to set up other punches including the lead left. Mayweather throws naked straight rights also against orthodox opponents. i never said the jab is a necessity but it's not like she has other things. She throws naked straight punches but without the athletic commitment of a Roy Jones or even a Mayweather. And Mayweather has many other strikes including a jab both to the head and the body to set up the straight right.

Holm has nothing in terms of hands to set up that shot.

She doesn't really have offensive footwork. Well yeah as you said she kinda has but not really. She has it when her opponents rush her then she moves and cna attack while moving away. When her opponents back up she hits air and even when her opponents stand still she hits mostly air.

Misha Tate is not a great striker and she is no Ali she did not move in tricky ways she simply stood back and did not bumrush Holm and that was enough so that Holm's offensive limitations showed. She did not attack at angles the times she actually dared to attack she hopped forward nervously and threw a straight left......like 2 out of 10 times she actually connected with that.

@ARIZE boxers are the master race so I'm not even going to respond to this

I don't see how you can deny she has offensive footwork even after I've explained tactics that she uses. I think its more likely she just doesn't use the sort of offensive footwork that you'd prefer her to use.

My wording was poor, What I was saying with Rigo is that it's not a set up for the left hand in of itself, he just uses it as his go to for everything. It works for him, but again - its not totally releant to home. Have you seen much of her boxing matches?

 

[Hotora86]

My understanding is that southpaws use their jabs mostly to nullify the opponents jabs, since when they both throw it, it "bumps" into each others strike. The southpaw is experienced, and used to that, while for the orthodox it can be very frustrating (that's another reason why in greater sports like MT, you don't need jabs)

Anyway, @AndyMaBobs and @PivotPunch , i will leave the rest of this discussion to you, and won't disagree with anyone, since i am not educated enough in this style (punches...pffff...what a waist of time) and not familiar with holly's past in boxing (boxing....pffff...what a waist of time)

WASTE!!! IT'S "WASTE OF TIME"!
Waist is the area of the body below the ribs and above the hips!

...sorry
/grammar nazi

 

[PivotPunch]

I don't see how you can deny she has offensive footwork even after I've explained tactics that she uses. I think its more likely she just doesn't use the sort of offensive footwork that you'd prefer her to use.

My wording was poor, What I was saying with Rigo is that it's not a set up for the left hand in of itself, he just uses it as his go to for everything. It works for him, but again - its not totally releant to home. Have you seen much of her boxing matches?

I don't see how waiting on your opponent to come in and hitting her while moving out of the way if "offensive" footwork. She has no footwork going forward. The definition or at least my definition of offence is proactive attacks. If Holm's opponent ltierally only stands there with a defending punches not throwing back THAT is when you have to use offensive footwork. But When her opponent doe sthat she misses half her punches even against bad-ish strikers like she did against Misha Tate. How is that good offensive footwork if you can't hit anyone who doesn't bumrush you?

I saw her first fight with Mathis and skipped through the rematch and a few of her others a while back.

@ARIZE any decent striking art has answers for any possible problem within it's ruleset. Not only MT but so has KB, Sanda, full contact karate and everything there is. MT isn't an exception in that regard.

Most of the hooks thrown in MT are long distance I don't know what you are talking about the long lead hooks is common in MT.
Same with straight punches to the body you see straight rights and lefts in most MT fights regularly espcially the straight left from southpaws. Not every Mt fighter is how youd esrcibe it a full leg fighter while they use more kciks and knees than the average kickboxer you don't need to go to Anuwat to see a fighter like that even the average MT fighter who isn't a pure kicking expert throws long hooks and straights to the body and head.

The reason Mt fighters win in a MT match vs kickboxers is well because it's a MT match. Also the talent pool is deeper in MT.

You say Mt guys who use a lot of punches are the exception but I don't know why that matters. Igf it works it works they are normal people just like any other fighter and it works. The meta game of all sports changes. From basketball to boxing. That doesnt necessarily mean that how any of these sports is at the moment is the "best" version it's just the current meta game.
Every few years it's either the strikers or the wrestlers who dominate MMA for example a few years ago the likes of GSP were wrestlefucking everyone now most champion win most of their fights standing up.

Same with boxing and MT. I'm not a MT expert but I do know that the scoring and the meta game in MT has changed in the last few decades.

In MT there have been many MT fighters who used hands a lot. Coban, Samart, Anuwat, Yodsenklai.

And it's not just anyone. If punches are that inferior how come it's Samart who is arguably the greatest MT fighter ever? Another possible choice would be Dieselnoi. Well who was the guy who apparently defeated the nearly unbeatable Dieselnoi 2 times? Sagat a guy who used his hands a lot

And even some jabs against the great Sagat..... how is that even possible?





Also for all the "Westeners just don't get the superior Thai scoring" thing: As i said the scoring has changed throughout the times of MT and I read that the clinch didn't score nearly as much as it does nowadays back then.
Here you have no one other than Smaart himself critize some of the issues of modern MT and the unclear and seemingly subjective scoring

 

[ARIZE]

@Hotora86

Yeah, sorry about that. Since English is not my first, or even second language, i make those kind of stupid mistakes often...

@PivotPunch

I disagree with the main idea of your post, but i don't think i will be able to properly explain/defend my opinion. I am not good enough with words (specially in English), and i find arguments in a forum to be very difficult to counter. I think i will probably make my case worst if i try to defend it. Anyway, you are one of those guys in here that I respect the opinion (even if it's completely totally entirely wrong in this particular subject)

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I don't see how waiting on your opponent to come in and hitting her while moving out of the way if "offensive" footwork. She has no footwork going forward. The definition or at least my definition of offence is proactive attacks. If Holm's opponent ltierally only stands there with a defending punches not throwing back THAT is when you have to use offensive footwork. But When her opponent doe sthat she misses half her punches even against bad-ish strikers like she did against Misha Tate. How is that good offensive footwork if you can't hit anyone who doesn't bumrush you?

I saw her first fight with Mathis and skipped through the rematch and a few of her others a while back.

@ARIZE any decent striking art has answers for any possible problem within it's ruleset. Not only MT but so has KB, Sanda, full contact karate and everything there is. MT isn't an exception in that regard.

Most of the hooks thrown in MT are long distance I don't know what you are talking about the long lead hooks is common in MT.
Same with straight punches to the body you see straight rights and lefts in most MT fights regularly espcially the straight left from southpaws. Not every Mt fighter is how youd esrcibe it a full leg fighter while they use more kciks and knees than the average kickboxer you don't need to go to Anuwat to see a fighter like that even the average MT fighter who isn't a pure kicking expert throws long hooks and straights to the body and head.

The reason Mt fighters win in a MT match vs kickboxers is well because it's a MT match. Also the talent pool is deeper in MT.

You say Mt guys who use a lot of punches are the exception but I don't know why that matters. Igf it works it works they are normal people just like any other fighter and it works. The meta game of all sports changes. From basketball to boxing. That doesnt necessarily mean that how any of these sports is at the moment is the "best" version it's just the current meta game.
Every few years it's either the strikers or the wrestlers who dominate MMA for example a few years ago the likes of GSP were wrestlefucking everyone now most champion win most of their fights standing up.

Same with boxing and MT. I'm not a MT expert but I do know that the scoring and the meta game in MT has changed in the last few decades.

In MT there have been many MT fighters who used hands a lot. Coban, Samart, Anuwat, Yodsenklai.

And it's not just anyone. If punches are that inferior how come it's Samart who is arguably the greatest MT fighter ever? Another possible choice would be Dieselnoi. Well who was the guy who apparently defeated the nearly unbeatable Dieselnoi 2 times? Sagat a guy who used his hands a lot

And even some jabs against the great Sagat..... how is that even possible?





Also for all the "Westeners just don't get the superior Thai scoring" thing: As i said the scoring has changed throughout the times of MT and I read that the clinch didn't score nearly as much as it does nowadays back then.
Here you have no one other than Smaart himself critize some of the issues of modern MT and the unclear and seemingly subjective scoring

If you feint with footwork, in order to draw a reaction, that is by its nature offensive.

I would say, I agree with you on the whole punching in Muay Thai. I do see Arize's point to a degree, but I also think that its an overestimation on how likely the hands are to be injured. Samart, Sagat, Dieselnoi and Pornsaneh are my favourite Muay Thai fighters - and all of them use punches effecitvely, albeit in different ways.