What happened to Sugar Ray Robinson in the Mayweather Jr GOAT discussion?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by spacetime, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Please, no deliberate ignorance. You know there are levels to the sport. We're talking the elite level here, where Floyd and Robinson fight. Floyd was undefeated against all, including elite level competition. Robinson was not. Lets pretend to need clarification like children as our argument, right?
     
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  2. Dr. Will

    Dr. Will Yellow Belt

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    We argue that there are indeed levels to competition. It's tougher to maintain clean records in Robinson's era. But then you don't like that it seems lol.

    If you emerge through Robinson's era with more wins than losses, and more specifically more frequent wins against top opposition than having more losses against them, that makes one a consistent top performing fighter. Now if you are 128-1 in that era where those who are seen as ATG's have losses far into the double figures, then you have found yourself a unicorn.

    Sugar Ray Unicorn.
     
  3. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Show me an era where it was "easy" to have a clean record.

    You have to realize, sure, some of these arguments work against Floyd but what happens when you turn them the other way?

    Do you think Ray Leonard is a great fighter?
     
  4. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Another question-

    When you guys consider a fighter like Floyds opposition and how great it is, is it guys like Felipe Garcia and Kino Rodriguez you consider? Because you seem to give a guy like Robinson a lot of credit for beating those sorts of guys. I don't think its really necessary. Robinson has the credentials to be great without having to fluff up his record with nonsense. There's no need to pretend every fight he fought was a quality fight with a guy worthy of being in the ring with him. Clearly there were many who shouldn't have been in there with him. Those guys don't make him great.

    Are fighters great because they fought a lot? Or because of who they beat?
     
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  5. Dr. Will

    Dr. Will Yellow Belt

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    Today is the easiest time to have a clean record. Look at some titleholders who held the title a few times.
    You can easily duck your way around fighters and it is defended even by fans now, when in the past it was seen as abhorred.

    Ray Leonard is a great fighter because he beat 4 of the best of all time in their very different styles - Duran, Hagler, Benitez, Hearns. These four wins catapult him to the 4th dimension because of how good they are H2H.
    They were all in good condition (relative to Leonard at the time who was also past prime, Hagler was in relatively similar condition). I don't care for Leonard's shot losses the way I don't care about Roy Jones' losses. In my book, beating 2 fighters on Mayweather tier is greater than beating 8 Hatton tier fighters simply because fewer fighters in history would beat 2 Mayweather tier opponents, but a much bigger number would beat 8 Hatton tier fighters.
     
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  6. Dr. Will

    Dr. Will Yellow Belt

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    This answers your question, as does the others by the other posters:

     
  7. JayE

    JayE Black Belt

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    Fullmer wasn't particularly similar to Provodnikov; he was actually really good on the inside and was extremely awkward. Provodnikov wasn't really good at anything aside from taking damage and having a pretty good punch.
     
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  8. Dr. Will

    Dr. Will Yellow Belt

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    It's ironic to pick Gene Fullmer and say he is more Ruslan Provodnikov level.
    Fullmer was at his peak in the late 50's early 60's. Literally just before 'prime Ali' burst onto the scene - Ali himself being considered to this day arguably the very best ever. No PED testing then either.

    Also, Fullmer beat many, many opponents with good 'new-timer friendly' records i.e a few losses.
     
  9. JayE

    JayE Black Belt

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    Just to add to the bit about Fullmer, if anything I'd compare him to Shawn Porter in style (a Shawn Porter who was far better on the inside and quite a bit dirtier). It wasn't a pretty style, but he was a very good fighter.
     
  10. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Nah, they were pretty similar. Winged hooks the same way, just relied on cutting off the ring and landing big shots.
     
  11. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    I don't see that at all.
     
  12. wilddeuces

    wilddeuces Brown Belt

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    He surpassed being undefeated for longer. I didn't say he was undefeated, I said he was undefeated for longer. If a guy fought once and retired undefeated then he has a 100% win rate, so the amount has to be taken into consideration. Ray went 79 fights in a row without losing, which is more than the 49 or 50 that Mayweather has. There's something there, it's a larger number, and, as you said, if you have the willingness (or in some cases courage) to stick around long enough, you will eventually lose. I agree with that. Still, 79 is a bigger number than 49.

    I never said SRR had a perfect record.
     
  13. moosaev

    moosaev Green Belt

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    You're making straw man arguments. Nobody ever claimed SRRs resume is all studs, but we have brought up the structural differences in the eras which are pertinent to the discussion. Namely, if you fight 200 times there is no way around fighting a few bums. You just dont want to acknowledge that it isnt an apples to apples comparison because its not convenient for your argument.
     
  14. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    I am not making straw man arguments. None of you guys have used a factual argument in the lat 15 posts.
     
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  15. JayE

    JayE Black Belt

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    Well, Provodnikov was outfought by Chris Algieri on the inside. Gene Fullmer beat Carmen Basilio up on the inside. That tells you how similar they were. He could also box on the backfoot at times, as well, against genuinely good fighters (he was outboxing Basilio on the backfoot for stretches during their fights). All in all, he was a far better than Provodnikov in about every way imaginable.
     
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  16. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Carmen Basilio was almost as crude as Fullmer though.

    I honestly don't think Fullmer was all that talented. He was just a bull with a hard head, a good punch and an aggressive style.
     
  17. moosaev

    moosaev Green Belt

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    The issue is you only want to have the conversation on your terms, thats why you're leaning only on records, because its the only way Mayweather is even in the discussion. How the fighters are regarded by their peers and contemporaries matter, the eye test matters. Mayweather was never credibly considered an all time great until fairly recently, and its hard not to conclude that much of his shine comes from his business acumen and the fact that he's managed to rise above the sport.
     
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  18. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Boxing is a sport and stats are what matters in sports. Thats the only logical and fair way to compare guys from different eras. Wins and losses are what the sport is about. We enjoy it for other reasons but greatness is defined by results.

    I don't argue that Robinson isn't great, I argue that Floyd is also and that making a comparison of the two is not insulting to anyone. Floyd sat atop the P4P peak for over a decade at an age when other greats we're talking about were losing to nobodies.
     
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  19. moosaev

    moosaev Green Belt

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    No, its not a fair comparison because like i've said its not an apples to apples comparison. Furthermore, to suggest that stats are the only fair way to compare athletes is utterly absurd and its why i'm saying you only want the discussion on your terms. By ignoring the qualitative assessment of both fighters youre handicapping the comparison in favor of Mayweather.
     
  20. JayE

    JayE Black Belt

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    He wasn't wildly talented, but he was a very good fighter. He was extremely tough (and dirty), very well conditioned, had a bit of versatility, and was great on the inside. That's enough to be a very good fighter in any era.
     
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