What happened to Sugar Ray Robinson in the Mayweather Jr GOAT discussion?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by spacetime, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. moosaev

    moosaev Green Belt

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    Whatre you talking about, he HAS fought guys like that. If Andre Berto fought in boxing's heyday he'd be considered whatever's below a club fighter.
     
  2. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    A lot of that is stretching it IMO. Robinson wasn't undefeated. He retired with a whole mess of losses on his record. Every fighter is undefeated until they lose. And Longevity? How does Robinson beat Floyd in longevity? Robinson was getting smacked around by crude brawlers when he was 38.

    I mean, yeah, I agree that Robinson ranks over Floyd but its nostalgia like that that makes a fair comparison impossible.
     
  3. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Total bullshit. Berto is a former champion and has beaten other ranked fighters recently.

    I watch Gene Fullmer and I see Ruslan Provodnikov. How about that? Does that mean I can pretend that beating him means shit?
     
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  4. moosaev

    moosaev Green Belt

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    Yes, Berto is a former champion in a world where either Paulus Moses or Ray Beltran will become a champion next month. Being a champion doesn't mean shit these days and you know it. And a win over Fullmer isn't why Sugar Ray Robinson is who he is.
     
  5. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Berto is a more accomplished fighter than the filler on Robinson's resume and you know it.
     
  6. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    The better comparison would have been Conor McGregor. When Floyd fought a gimme opponent like Conor, there were people who wanted the fight expunged from his record. "He's not really 50-0!" Remember that? Oh but Robinson, he fought guys they picked out of the audience at a circus 3 times a month. Wow.

    I've pointed out this nostalgic bias a million times on this site. People love to criticize modern fighters but refuse to apply the same standards to the old timers.
     
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  7. moosaev

    moosaev Green Belt

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    Dude, SRR had over 4x the number of pro bouts than Mayweather (200+ vs. 50). The reason current fighters are held to different standards is because they fight so rarely, there is less tolerance for gimme fights. Simple as that. Back in the day you could watch 2 contenders fight every month knowing that they were on a collision course, it built anticipation but unlike today the buildup would be 6-8 months not 5 years.
     
  8. Noctilux

    Noctilux Purple Belt

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    Like Conor?
     
  9. spacetime

    spacetime Black Belt

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    Since they were both superior to their rivals and consistent. Why not compare them then on a technical basis? Do you seriously rate SSR above Mayweather Jr technically?
     
  10. JayE

    JayE Black Belt

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    Robinson would take many stay busy fights throughout the year, but he'd also be fighting elite competition more frequently on a year by year basis than any fighter active today. The 129-1-2 record wouldn't mean much if it was against scrub opposition. It meant a lot because out of those 129 wins before the Turpin loss, around 30 were against rated opposition over 3 weight classes (135-160); not to mention the many more top wins he accumulated after first losing to Turpin. What Mayweather achieved was remarkable (to fight at the elite level and be at least top 5 p4p rated from 1998-2015 without losing is remarkable), but it's simply a fact that he fought far fewer elite fighters than Robinson.

    Now, since boxing is so different in this era (it's way easier to monetize individual fights which renders being that active at the elite level either pointless or impossible), I'd go as far to say that it might be impossible to ever face as much elite opposition as Robinson (or other greats like Armstrong, Greb, or Charles) did in this day and age. That is one of the biggest difficulties in comparing eras, and one the reasons why it's a very imprecise and ultimately subjective endeavour.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  11. wilddeuces

    wilddeuces Brown Belt

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    Where's the stretch? He was undefeated for more fights so he did surpass Floyd's unbeaten streak. That's not a stretch, that's a fact. And then when he was in his prime and past it he won real tough fights. He did have a long line of prime HOFer's he had to tangle with and beat many of them, and no one is saying that those losses weren't there, so how is that a stretch? He lost but fought so often that would invariably happen and he won so often and that is a testament to how good he was. He also fought more often and for longer, and given the meaning of longevity (long existence or service), SRR fits the bill. Floyd would be getting smacked around too if, at his present age, he was fighting a top notch, prime, in his 20's guy that was naturally much larger than him and he was fighting these guys on a regular basis.
     
  12. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Yes, like people laughed at him for fighting Conor. Same thing Robinson did, he fought a bum for money. Except Floyds a clown for it but Robinson was just some fierce warrior who couldn't control his need to fight long enough for his team to find him enough legit opponents between big fights, right?

    {<jordan}

    Thats what I'm saying, Robinson does it 85 times in his career and wow, what a warrior. Floyd does it once and he's a joke, a con artist.

    I have to admit, I always wonder if people would think Floyd was better if he charged for and sanctioned his sparring sessions like Robinson did.
     
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  13. Dr. Will

    Dr. Will Yellow Belt

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    Thankfully there are others here who are bringing forth reason in this discussion lol. Bashing old-time careers is a very, very misinformed and an overwhelmingly minority view amongst anyone who knows anything about boxing and its history, even if they prefer newer eras.

    Throw Berto into SRR's era, and he would have as many wins as losses. Especially with his style. Hence why athletic gifts were simply not enough to get a fighter through, you needed to have skill in abundance.

    Btw, I will say that I am glad McGregor counts on Floyd's resume. McGregor had some kind of amateur boxing background and lets face it, he would have beaten a lot of lower level boxers within 5 rounds, who do count as 'wins' on boxers resumes.
     
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  14. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    No one is bashing anyone, we're having a pretty good discussion here, don't fuck it up by being snide.

    That is pure assumption that you are stating as fact. Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basillio were as crude as could be. People got knocked out with sharp counter punches in Robinson's era too.

    I'm not even that high on Berto, I actually don't like him at all, but you're just making up things and adding them to the conversation as though they are real.
     
  15. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    I explained exactly why it was a stretch. Why do you ask when I literally explained it in the next sentence? Floyd retired undefeated. Robinson didn't. So no, he didn't "beat Floyds record." See, again, you guys are just making up things to add to the legend, even though its not factually correct. Sorry, Robinson didn't have a perfect record. Floyd actually did.
     
  16. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Let me put it this way- if your argument towards a guys greatness isn't sustainable by some fact or figure, its probably nonsense.

    Now sure, Robinson did actually have the achievement to be considered the best but its surely not because he fought 85 tomato cans throughout his career.
     
  17. spacetime

    spacetime Black Belt

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    Conor a bum? He spanked Paulie Malignaggi in a sparring match. Just because Mayweather makes you look bad doesnt mean you are
     
  18. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Tell you what, show me your top 10 or anyone's top 10 where you believe all 10 are CLEARLY more accomplished than Floyd. Lets do that. You guys said Floyd wasn't even close to top 10. Prove it. Once you guys get past the first 3, you'll be stumbling all over the place trying to find another 7.
     
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  19. moosaev

    moosaev Green Belt

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    You're not even acknowledging the structural differences in the sport. 200 pro bouts vs. 50, its a fallacy to even attempt to quantitatively compare them. It comes down to the qualitative difference between Robinson as a fighter and his era vs. Mayweather as a fighter and his era. When you consider the context as well as contemporaneous reports about both fighters its not even close. I have never seen a single credible boxing journalist opine (during Mayweather's prime) that he witnessed the finest fighter to ever step in the ring in Mayweather. However, such statements were routine during SRR's welterweight days, thats how highly he was touted. Look it up for yourself, I have. Thats far more important than a watered down 50-0.
     
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  20. Kovalev's "Man Bag"

    Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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