What China has accomplished: Amazing

Mao was consolidating power and was ruthless. He got it. He died. The people who replaced him are now bending communism for economic advancement. They should've been honest & just announced that capitalism was/is better.

Central planning is better. Most everything is still controlled by Communists. The wealthy capitalists are just the relatives of the party members. The higher up the member, the wealthier his capitalist relative is. Everything else just trickles down.
 
Proof that actual capitalism works!

It's so weird when, after years of explaining to people that China is not communist (EDIT: Actually, I will concede they are "communist" in the 19th century political usage as a direct result of the era's Marxist's revolutions, but they are certainly not Marxist, nor socialist), I now have to explain that they are not pure capitalist. "Actual capitalism" failed China so hard, that they had to be bailed out and modernized by Mao, who was a tyrannical and incompetent (Trump-esque) boob. China's rise does show the merits of market participation and of centralized planning.

Coincidentally, it does fairly little for capitalism and almost nothing for socialism. If anything, it speaks to the virtues of fucking Stalinism/state capitalism.
 
Damn. Now this is interesting.

Well, China is a Superpower. I would say they control and influence much of the world and the economy. Heck, everything these days is made in China. The U.S. debt to China is $1.2 trillion, as of May 2017. If they request payment, it would pretty much destroy the U.S. economy as we know it. The have about 300 nuclear warheads and some are Hydrogen bombs. The have a thriving Space Program, not just to launch satellites, but they plan landings on the moon and missions to Mars. Largest conventional military in the world. Highly advanced, rich, and educated in some areas and also backwards, and poor in other areas. A lot like the Russians. Definitely don't want to piss them off. We want them as our friends. They could destroy North Korea economically if they wanted to.

Prospect for U.S. and Chinese relations...
 
The U.S. debt to China is $1.2 trillion, as of May 2017. If they request payment, it would pretty much destroy the U.S. economy as we know it.

I have to disagree here.

Consider this, the U.S. has around $16 trillion in outstanding debt and most of it is held by us, and the bulge bracket banks here at home: Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Citibank, Bank of America. Around 7.5 percent is held by China, the biggest foreign holder of U.S. debt.

One of the reasons why China has so much Treasury holdings is because of trade. Companies put money in short term Treasury notes and bills to settle trade payments. China's government could also call all of its own holdings and demand full payment of the money it lent us in principal plus interest, but under what circumstance would they do such a thing?

It would be a national security risk if China held a position where they could dictate U.S. policy on fiscal and monetary matters. They cannot.

If the economy was crashing and China got terrified and wanted their money back, unless the U.S. defaulted, it would hand it over and there would be nothing China would get in return. Moreover, when the U.S. economy was collapsing in 2008 all the way to the 666 low on March 6 in the S&P 500, China never retreated from Treasurys, or demand Congress get its finances in order or else it would choose to buy euros, or gold instead.

The Pentagon did an evaluation on the risks posed by China's ownership of U.S. debt in July and came to the same conclusion: "Attempting to use U.S. Treasury securities as a coercive tool would have limited effect and likely would do more harm to China than to the United States."

The report was sent to congressional committees by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, who called China's ownership of U.S. debt non-problematic and non-threatening.

The USBC's take is that Chinawants its holdings of Treasury debt to gain value, not lose value. And just because interest rates are going down, that doesn't mean China is losing value on those holdings. Lower interest rates might be bad for income generation, but they mean more demand for bonds, which means higher bond prices.

China wants the U.S. economy to prosper because that means China will be able to continue exporting here. As it is, exports from China to the European Union are all down. Exports to the U.S. are up. China is not in a position to threaten the U.S. with financial "terrorism" of any kind. A decision by China to sell off massive positions of U.S. debt would send the American economy into a downward spiral, harming not only the value of China's investments, but also China's export-driven economy.

The bigger issue for the U.S., says John Frisbie, director of the USBC in Washington is the size of our fiscal deficit and the long term implications for the economy, not the level of China's debt holdings.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrap...debt-a-national-security-threat/#36663b0c156d


Many worry that China’s ownership of American debt affords the Chinese economic leverage over the United States. This apprehension, however, stems from a misunderstanding of sovereign debt and of how states derive power from their economic relations. The purchasing of sovereign debt by foreign countries is a normal transaction that helps maintain openness in the global economy. As of December 2016, Japan holds more U.S. debt than any other foreign entity, including China. Consequently, China’s stake in America’s debt has more of a binding than dividing effect on bilateral relations between the two countries.

Even if China wished to “call in” its loans, the use of credit as a coercive measure is complicated and often heavily constrained. A creditor can only dictate terms for the debtor country if that debtor has no other options. In the case of the United States, American debt is a widely held and an extremely desirable asset in the global economy. Whatever debt China does sell is simply purchased by other countries. For instance, in August 2015 China reduced its holdings of U.S. Treasuries by approximately $180 billion. Despite the scale, this selloff did not significantly affect the U.S. economy, thereby limiting the impact that such an action may have on U.S. decision making.

Furthermore, China needs to maintain significant reserves of U.S. debt to manage the exchange rate of the renminbi. Were China to suddenly unload its reserve holdings, its currency’s exchange rate would rise, making Chinese exports more expensive in foreign markets. As such, China’s holdings of American debt do not provide China with undue economic influence over the United States. This page examines the role U.S. debt plays in the global economy by exploring the reasons countries buy sovereign debt; explaining in more detail why China buys U.S. sovereign debt; and discussing which financial actors hold the most U.S. sovereign debt.

https://chinapower.csis.org/us-debt/
 
You are looking at a transfer of wealth from the West in pictures, right there. I would applaid capitalism, bit that wpuld be wrong. This illustrates the inherent FAILURE in capitalism.

The Chinese did not earn the money to create that impressive city through competing with the West in any kind of legit way. "Legit" in traditional economic, and global trade sense, would be competing through 'comparative advantage.' Look it up if you have to, I'm not explaining it. But basically, if comparative advantage is created by a communist power in ALL VITAL MANUFACTURING INDUSTRIES by being able to artificially repress workers wages, manipulate currency, and have the government take and control land for all business purposes it sees fit, all while repressing regulations beyond the point of reasonably taking citizens health into account, well then that is proof that communism wins.

Lol the bold is stuck, even though I clicked it off. Thanks sherdog.

Anyways, that city is nothing but the manifestation of the lowering of the bar for the rest of the world. Business men of the West selling out their homelands because they liked 13 year old prostitutes, and short term profits, over long term health of their own companies and also of their home nations.

Only morally driven capitalism works in the end.
 
Well, China is a Superpower. I would say they control and influence much of the world and the economy. Heck, everything these days is made in China. The U.S. debt to China is $1.2 trillion, as of May 2017. If they request payment, it would pretty much destroy the U.S. economy as we know it.

:) That's not how bonds work. Nothing in bond contracts entitles you to "request payment" immediately from the issuer. You can sell your holdings for an upfront payment, and if China did that, it would be fine for us and disastrous for them.
 
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I take all things China with a massive grain of salt. They've certainly added economic success over the years but it's not as widespread or as transformative as people like to imply. In short, they cook their books on almost everything.
 
You are looking at a transfer of wealth from the West in pictures, right there. I would applaid capitalism, bit that wpuld be wrong. This illustrates the inherent FAILURE in capitalism.

The Chinese did not earn the money to create that impressive city through competing with the West in any kind of legit way. "Legit" in traditional economic, and global trade sense, would be competing through 'comparative advantage.' Look it up if you have to, I'm not explaining it. But basically, if comparative advantage is created by a communist power in ALL VITAL MANUFACTURING INDUSTRIES by being able to artificially repress workers wages, manipulate currency, and have the government take and control land for all business purposes it sees fit, all while repressing regulations beyond the point of reasonably taking citizens health into account, well then that is proof that communism wins.

Lol the bold is stuck, even though I clicked it off. Thanks sherdog.

Anyways, that city is nothing but the manifestation of the lowering of the bar for the rest of the world. Business men of the West selling out their homelands because they liked 13 year old prostitutes, and short term profits, over long term health of their own companies and also of their home nations.

Only morally driven capitalism works in the end.
Funny how that was the same "they lowering the bar" excuse given by the British when their manufacturing was being bumped out of the market by "American cheap knockoffs" in the 1800's. It's also the same knee jerk excuse from Americans against "cheap Japanese imports" in the 1980's.

LOL @ morally driven capitalism, like capitalism isn't about maximizing profit and minimizing cost.
 
China is where it is in spite of the West. Barely 150 years after the opium wars, and they are poised to overtake America.

Having richer, more advanced trading partners is a huge plus for growth. And population is the main reason they're "poised to overtake America" as the biggest market. Their GDP per capita is still about $8K American (ours is $52K). They're making fast progress, but they're many decades behind us, with some big problems on the horizon.
 
they've certainly stepped their games up lately
but their restricted internet, massive pollution issues, Yuan manipulation, income disparity, etc.... are all atrocious

the interesting thing I find about their economy is their recent shift towards FDI's into Africa and S. America....
 
Funny how that was the same "they lowering the bar" excuse given by the British when their manufacturing was being bumped out of the market by "American cheap knockoffs" in the 1800's. It's also the same knee jerk excuse from Americans against "cheap Japanese imports" in the 1980's.

LOL @ morally driven capitalism, like capitalism isn't about maximizing profit and minimizing cost.

Without a basic, moral culture, it will FAIL. We will go bankrupt, the middle class will cease to exist, and capitalism will fail and totalitarianism and repressive governments will win. Short term greed creates long term fail. Sorry you don't understand.

Also, you have such an amazing grasp on the news of the 1800s.
 
Without a basic, moral culture, it will FAIL. We will go bankrupt, the middle class will cease to exist, and capitalism will fail and totalitarianism and repressive governments will win. Short term greed creates long term fail. Sorry you don't understand.

Also, you have such an amazing grasp on the news of the 1800s.
Yes morality was the driving force behind the market economy, not. It has always been about the bottom line. Keep chanting "dey tukk er jerbs cuz we moral" and maybe the corporations will come back. You might as well pray for a pot of gold to drop from the sky.
 
they've certainly stepped their games up lately
but their restricted internet,
Everyone in China gets around that.

massive pollution issues,

Polluted cities aren't that bad if you don't have respirotory diseases.
Yuan manipulation,

It's their currency, not your's..

income disparity,

They're building a middle class. They have the largest middle class in the world.
 
But basically, if comparative advantage is created by a communist power in ALL VITAL MANUFACTURING INDUSTRIES by being able to artificially repress workers wages, manipulate currency, and have the government take and control land for all business purposes it sees fit, all while repressing regulations beyond the point of reasonably taking citizens health into account, well then that is proof that communism wins.

lol I had to use red font to quote you because you emboldened and italicized.

I'm interested in what you're saying, but American capitalism also engages in the practises I quoted in red. I'm not sure about currency manipulation, but it could easily be argued that business have also lobbied their way into repurposing public land as they see fit.
 
I hope it is. Whatever one thinks of the repressive government in China today, they are gentle compared to Mao.


Mao's legacy is still being felt in other Asian countries his anti capitalistic and war on business doctrine caused so much damage.

To this day the police and military in my country are still being targeted by Maiost groups.

A bannana factory closed down because equipment are getting burned by Maoists.
 
You are looking at a transfer of wealth from the West in pictures, right there. I would applaid capitalism, bit that wpuld be wrong. This illustrates the inherent FAILURE in capitalism.

The Chinese did not earn the money to create that impressive city through competing with the West in any kind of legit way. "Legit" in traditional economic, and global trade sense, would be competing through 'comparative advantage.' Look it up if you have to, I'm not explaining it. But basically, if comparative advantage is created by a communist power in ALL VITAL MANUFACTURING INDUSTRIES by being able to artificially repress workers wages, manipulate currency, and have the government take and control land for all business purposes it sees fit, all while repressing regulations beyond the point of reasonably taking citizens health into account, well then that is proof that communism wins.

Lol the bold is stuck, even though I clicked it off. Thanks sherdog.

Anyways, that city is nothing but the manifestation of the lowering of the bar for the rest of the world. Business men of the West selling out their homelands because they liked 13 year old prostitutes, and short term profits, over long term health of their own companies and also of their home nations.

Only morally driven capitalism works in the end.

Ok, let's try this. If American companies didn't outsource labor to China but Russian companies did then what would happen to American companies?

Also, that's not what comparative advantage is. Comparative advantage always exists, no matter what and there's no way to eliminate it. You described absolute advantage.
 
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