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Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by BringBackTRTforFairness, Jun 10, 2017.
Hip throw, knee pick, body clinch
According to this site
WOW amazing thanks Ladder!!
whats a body lock? Is that like a Greco takedown?
At risk of being pedantic, it always bothers me when people use this kind of data and label it "highest percentage xxx". This is a count of successfully completed takedowns. You can't say anything about the success *rate* until you compare that to the number of times each technique was attempted. It's possible that scissor sweeps are more efficient per attempt than double legs but doubles are simply attempted orders of magnitude more often, but you can't tell from this information.
@Dirty Holt care to post the breakdown on the Olympics or international wrestling competition you posted a few months ago?
This but also lots of these techniques have over lap. A lot of double legs are essentially just pick ups, but they had to go very low to lock you up. So it is basically like a body lock and pick up.
You still get a rough idea of whats rubbish and whats not, its not crystal clear granted but we all know in MMA shoulder throws and hip throws are poor compared to wrestling shoots, theres been plenty of Judo, Sambo etc guys to test their throws vs the wrestlers abilities and Judo comes up short for this transitional stage of fighting (at least with no upper body clothes on)
There may be some evolution in the future where shoots become negated by improved defences and it becomes all about hip throws but I highly doubt it.
What are Greco takedowns, is it any wrestling take down from the waist up? So body lock takedowns suplexes , hip wizzers?
But hip throws win fights. If you have the ability to do a hip throw, your opponent has to be careful how they position their feet during a body lock and how they push into you. Without it, you are vulnerable.
I wish there were more inside trips, they are so simple; yet work so greatly whenever used.
Sure but it's still bad statistics and sloppy writing.
It's my experience that it's hard to get young/new people have trouble because hitting the inside trip right requires a commitment in the sag that feels really scary at first. You need to slowly develop the confidence
Jesus Christ. Data literacy on the internet. Will wonders never cease.
You are completely correct. Total count is not reflective of efficiency, though it could be viewed as a good proxy for effectiveness. Though frankly the question is not very well formed, because the efficiency of any particular takedown is completely dependent upon who is attempting it. Footsweeps are extremely efficient in MMA, but very few people come from backgrounds that emphasize foot sweeps so you still don't see very many even though the work very well and offer basically no risk of being countered. It's also somewhat hard to delineate a lot of these moves. For example, are you counting double legs against the cage in the same category as double legs in space? They're executing *very* differently and have very different success rates, should they be counted as two different moves?
In general TS, I think the takedowns you see work most often are double legs and bodylock/outside trips against the cage, and reactive doubles in space. But that's speaking very, very broadly, certain fighters have takedowns which are super high % for them that not a lot of people execute well. Daniel Cormier, for example, has a very high % high crotch lift, but not so many people use that the way he does it or have success when they try it. Akiyama used to hit osoto and ouchi garis all over the place, but he was almost the only international level Judoka to make a serious run in his prime; you don't see many people hitting those throws even though his success rate with them was very high. Lyoto Machida has some of the best foot sweeps I've ever seen in MMA, but his highly unique karate + sumo background is not one that many people can emulate (which is too bad. His foot sweep against Dan Henderson may be the cleanest takedown I've ever seen in MMA). So if you watch a lot of MMA you'll mostly see double legs and body locks up against the cage, but that shouldn't make you think those are the only things that work. Those are just techniques that are both very effective and align with the skill sets most athletes and coaches bring into MMA.
It's very hard to teach. I don't think I've ever gotten beginner Judo students to do it correctly, and it's because they simply won't drop their level enough because it feels so dangerous. Though in all fairness, I didn't have a good ouchi gari until I was already a black belt. It's not an easy move.
It is also hard to finish an inside trip unless you have a really strong pull to set it up, which is hard nogi. Outside trips are way more common in mma than in judo, and inside trips are the reverse. It's just a different game.
FWIW, Nate The Great is an example of a guy who uses the inside trip fairly often no-gi; he hit it twice in his recent outing on Belfort.
Fedor has some great inside trips too. But overall they are harder to find setups for.