What are the goals of teaching in your country?

[panamaican]

Character development like you said can be taught with things like communications or have classes where kids can express and debate ideas. Character development in the sense of morality isn't something I feel should be taught at schools. The kids can be exposed to new ideas but I don't think it's the states job to parent kids. But if the students can debate and express these ideas I think it's a positive.

What you're saying is right in line with where the modern public school conversation is. Yet at the college prep schools and the religious schools, they take a very different direction. They teach character development in the sense of morality.

We used to do it in our public schools too.

As I noted previously, by not teaching a shared sense of morality in the one place that all kids pass through - the public school - aren't we essentially guaranteeing that future kids won't have as strong a sense of shared morality as the earlier generations?

 

[PainIsLIfe]

A lot of what I see in private schools these days, admittedly limited, is a commitment to teaching kids values like: honesty, kindness, sincerity, empathy, service to others, global awareness. That's taught right alongside the college preparation skills. The religious schools do the same thing but they use the religion as the backbone of the character lessons.

I really think it's unfortunate the public schools no longer seem to actively teach these things as part of the curriculum.

Well, I don't really know a lot about the private system - I was more giving my pessimistic view of the public system.

I think we tend to try to teach kids in elementary school to be nice to each other and around the time we start focusing on SOLs everything besides the SOLs gets thrown out the window.

One year a teacher told me she didn't have time to teach my son because he already knew the material and she had 6 kids that she spent most of her time focusing on because they needed "extra help or they wont pass the SOLs".

She stuck him and others on computers to learn math and reading from an online system while she worked with the others. My son was able to learn independently, but I wonder how many kids basically lost a yr of education because they weren't.

 

[panamaican]

There really should be common ground that we can reach ideologically. Hard work and accountability should be things we can convince every kid to value, but unfortunately you have parents who will check their kids out of school before a difficult quiz/test because the kid isn't ready. God forbid their class rank suffers. Kids need to be allowed to fail so they can understand the value of working hard to succeed. And they need to realize they can still live terrific lives even if they aren't in the top 10 of their high school class.

I think that reflects a growing understanding that the path to economic success is getting narrower. It's interesting that they've chosen to double down on the type of behaviors that create the narrowing, rather than working to broaden the path. But everyone believes that their kid is the next Gates or Bezos and not the next cashier.

 

[panamaican]

Well, I don't really know a lot about the private system - I was more giving my pessimistic view of the public system.

I think we tend to try to teach kids in elementary school to be nice to each other and around the time we start focusing on SOLs everything besides the SOLs gets thrown out the window.

One year a teacher told me she didn't have time to teach my son because he already knew the material and she had 6 kids that she spent most of her time focusing on because they needed "extra help or they wont pass the SOLs".

She stuck him and others on computers to learn math and reading from an online system while she worked with the others. My son was able to learn independently, but I wonder how many kids basically lost a yr of education because they weren't.

A common complaint. Most classrooms teach to the top of the bottom 1/3 (per something I read a few months back) and the k-5 curriculum is designed to repeat the same material over the 6 years so that concepts get reintroduced and re-taught regularly. It's a system that only works when you have time to advance the students in line with their ability. And most teachers don't take the time. I also read that a surprising number of elementary school students are at least 1 year ahead of the curriculum on math and reading.

Did you ask for a grade skip? It used to be frowned upon but I think the new research suggests the kids who do so express greater satisfaction with their education.

 

[VivaRevolution]

The goal in the US is to create factory workers, for factory jobs that no longer exist.

 

[panamaican]

As a parent I become enraged nightly about the way math is being taught now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...bout-common-core-math/?utm_term=.89e1dca7f7fe

Can I ask why?

I think the article raises some interesting points about the effects of shortcuts on the abstract thinking that underlies math.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

*Fewer

 

[m25105]

So dumb question, what is standardized testing? It sounds like evaluating the pupils level of knowledge by quizzing them.

 

[Bald1]

Be a good cog in the machine, the last time I checked. Less thinking, more giving the right answers you plebs!

 

[Bamboozled]

What you're saying is right in line with where the modern public school conversation is. Yet at the college prep schools and the religious schools, they take a very different direction. They teach character development in the sense of morality.

We used to do it in our public schools too.

As I noted previously, by not teaching a shared sense of morality in the one place that all kids pass through - the public school - aren't we essentially guaranteeing that future kids won't have as strong a sense of shared morality as the earlier generations?

Not necessarily. I do think philosophy should be a core class in high school. Ethics is a branch of philosophy. I don't want particular values taught, if that makes sense. Teachers shouldn't be allowed to have a final say on what ethics or morals are better for their class. I do think the exchange of ideas is important. What I actually would like to happen but won't, is have people not afraid to express their ideas.

 

[panamaican]

Not necessarily. I do think philosophy should be a core class in high school. Ethics is a branch of philosophy. I don't want particular values taught, if that makes sense. Teachers shouldn't be allowed to have a final say on what ethics or morals are better for their class. I do think the exchange of ideas is important. What I actually would like to happen but won't, is have people not afraid to express their ideas.

It makes sense but it leaves a question unanswered. If you don't teach ethics/morals then how do you ensure a shared ethical foundation across your future generations?

 

[Bamboozled]

It makes sense but it leaves a question unanswered. If you don't teach ethics/morals then how do you ensure a shared ethical foundation across your future generations?

Good parenting. If you teach the first generation how to think critically of their decisions and their moral views they should help their children with it as well as have the proper education to reinforce their ideas or change to them to how they best see fit. We have a pretty good baseline as a species when it comes to morals. How we navigate them is different.

 

[panamaican]

Good parenting. If you teach the first generation how to think critically of their decisions and their moral views they should help their children with it as well as have the proper education to reinforce their ideas or change to them to how they best see fit. We have a pretty good baseline as a species when it comes to morals. How we navigate them is different.

Good parenting yields a range of ethical foundations, it doesn't yield a shared one.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

i'm actually pretty pro Philosophy myself

but only b/c that IMO is essentially religion w/o the supernatural element....i.e. explaining life's meaning, truths and inherent factors, is man good/bad, etc....

and can teach people to think critically w/o also giving a crutch/scapegoat for anything too hard to understand

Also per Ethics: teach Aesop's Fables (seriously) and call it a day.

 

[helltoupee]

I'm writing this, due to the threads about teachers, and I got curious how it functions in other countries.

In Denmark, the goal of teaching is to make sure that the pupils/students have the knowledge and skills to be able to function in the danish society. They call it "dannelse" (in German "Bildung"), the closest word I think would be shaping, or forming. This means that teachers have to shape the students to be democratic minded, to be able to think for themselves, be critical, be able to tolerate ideas that doesn't align with their own, make group choices, have solidarity, and be equipped to handle the key problems they will face.
These problems are described as war, globalisation, pollution, climate change, terrorism, inequality, and so on.
The government also have common goals that they want the pupils to reach, in terms of knowledge and skills, and thus educators have to plant their course that aligns with the mandatory goals. An example could be "pupils have to have the knowledge about danish politics, and be able to explain and understand the difference in the political parties." The course planning is then left to the teachers, as long as the goal set by the ministry of education is met.

Personally, I am a great believer in Danish form of education and its focus on shaping the pupils to be democratic functioning members of society, able to contribute to the overall welfare of the state.

On a side note, it takes about 4 years to become a teacher, which includes 4 intern periods, and a bachelor's dissertation (plus the oral defence), and is considered a university level education. The colleges teaches, besides the courses that students wants to be specialised in, psychology, pedagogical skills, and didactics, as well as common teaching skills, such as class room management.

On the philosophical side, you may have an educational system that "forms" people into proper Danish citizens, but it's kind of a slippery slope because this same manner of indoctrination could be used for nefarious purposes.

I think the American educational system is more indirectly affected by individualism - wherein people are more inclined to think freely and form their own opinions (within a limited scope), ie., critical thinking rather than rote learning. Part of this stems from our very culture and how we raise our kids. You have less of a group mentality when everyone is convinced they are the center of their own universe. It's all about me, me, me. You are left with a million people going a million miles per hour in a million different directions.

I suppose your system is technically more proficient at molding people into something defined, however you are doing a balancing act as to the motives of the ones dictating the mold.

 

[Cake4Breakfast]

Can I ask why?

I think the article raises some interesting points about the effects of shortcuts on the abstract thinking that underlies math.

That is the argument for it by the authors of Common Core, and if it accomplished that, I would be in favor of it. But, in practice it makes kids who are naturally gifted with numbers undertake many redundant and obtuse steps to get to an answer that they literally can do in their heads. I shit you not, my 2nd grade daughter will fill up a page with inane steps only to get the problem wrong, and then I ask her to do it in her head, and she gets it right in less than a second. Overall, is leads to more confusion, to more simple calculating errors, and actually has made my kids dread math.

 

[panamaican]

That is the argument for it by the authors of Common Core, and if it accomplished that, I would be in favor of it. But, in practice it makes kids who are naturally gifted with numbers undertake many redundant and obtuse steps to get to an answer that they literally can do in their heads. I shit you not, my 2nd grade daughter will fill up a page with inane steps only to get the problem wrong, and then I ask her to do it in her head, and she gets it right in less than a second. Overall, is leads to more confusion, to more simple calculating errors, and actually has made my kids dread math.

I've heard the unnecessary steps position before, including from a friend who is a teacher. I have mixed feelings about the concept but I don't have a kid going through it right now either.

Per the article, the problem they're trying to address (problem being their description, not mine) is that kids can give you answers but can't really explain why those answers are right. Sort of like how in the WR some posters are convinced that something is the best direction for the country but can't really explain why.

So, if that's true then it makes sense to force kids to be able to lay out all of the obtuse steps until those steps, and the reasoning that drives them, are second nature. But I don't know if it's true.

 

[cincymma79]

So dumb question, what is standardized testing? It sounds like evaluating the pupils level of knowledge by quizzing them.

That’s exaclty what it is. It is the only way to measure if kids are learning, hence teachers don’t like it. It’s like telling people you have a twelve inch penis but telling them they can’t look at it, measure it, ask people who have used it, or see it’s effects but you swear it’s the biggest one.

 

[Cake4Breakfast]

I've heard the unnecessary steps position before, including from a friend who is a teacher. I have mixed feelings about the concept but I don't have a kid going through it right now either.

Per the article, the problem they're trying to address (problem being their description, not mine) is that kids can give you answers but can't really explain why those answers are right. Sort of like how in the WR some posters are convinced that something is the best direction for the country but can't really explain why.

So, if that's true then it makes sense to force kids to be able to lay out all of the obtuse steps until those steps, and the reasoning that drives them, are second nature. But I don't know if it's true.

I have not looked, but I doubt that there is any legitimate research showing that Common Core accomplishes what it claims to. It certainly has not made my kids understand concepts, I feel like I need to do that after they have completed their common core worksheets. I am not the type of person to be threatened by change, and I like to challenge myself to learn new things, but I feel like this is a really negative change to education, and I am almost to the point of considering private or home schooling to move my kids away from this philosophy of education. It may help folks at Taco Bell who need the cash register to tell them how to give you correct change when you give them $5.75 for a $3.69 bill, but I think it holds talented kids back, and turns them off.

 

[panamaican]

I have not looked, but I doubt that there is any legitimate research showing that Common Core accomplishes what it claims to. It certainly has not made my kids understand concepts, I feel like I need to do that after they have completed their common core worksheets. I am not the type of person to be threatened by change, and I like to challenge myself to learn new things, but I feel like this is a really negative change to education, and I am almost to the point of considering private or home schooling to move my kids away from this philosophy of education. It may help folks at Taco Bell who need the cash register to tell them how to give you correct change when you give them $5.75 for a $3.69 bill, but I think it holds talented kids back, and turns them off.

I think holding talented kids back is a separate issue from common core, well somewhat separate, and can only be addressed by a more aggressive approach to how we structure the educational setting. We know enough now to say with certainty that ability based grouping is better than age based grouping even though we haven't brought it into the classroom.

I am going to go look up the research foundation for Common Core since I have no idea what research drove this specific component of the curriculum...or any component for that matter.