Was Ward Kovalev II a bad stopage?

[Marc A]

Paulie droppin more good shit.



Roy chimes in. :40 Breaks down the belt bove the navel situation. Like it or not Real Talk
Maybe some of you guys learn something from this vid.

Just like the poll on this forum
Paulie says there where some low blows and why didn't Andre get warned , the stoppage was a shock , it shouldn't have been stopped Kov was hurt but not stop the fight hurt


Roy Jones didn't feel they were low , it was borderline wasn't shocked at Andre dominance

2 take aways

1. Andre Ward won
2. His win has a huge cloud , no matter how the fans want to spin it , slow mo it , angle enhance it,
Looks like 50 percent think it was a legit win with no cloud and those that complain are salty haters

50% feel the stoppage was absurd and robbed Ward of a clean win , The fans to see a conclusive ending for the money paid and Kov to truly fight till the end

To ignore there's no controversy is just out right lying to oneself

 

[PUO3]

To stop the fight on three low blows just has to be wrong I don't see any way around that. If the ref didn't see them then he didn't see them but that's poor reffing. I'm surprised how many don't think it was a poor stoppage. I guess the thinking is he was on his way out anyway. Still at the championship level I don't think you should stop a fight unless someone is in serious trouble, Kovalev wasn't in serious trouble.

How long does one need to run away stumbling and getting battered, after having their knees buckled, before you consider it "serious trouble"?

 

[nastyleft]

Just like the poll on this forum
Paulie says there where some low blows and why didn't Andre get warned , the stoppage was a shock , it shouldn't have been stopped Kov was hurt but not stop the fight hurt


Roy Jones didn't feel they were low , it was borderline wasn't shocked at Andre dominance

2 take aways

1. Andre Ward won
2. His win has a huge cloud , no matter how the fans want to spin it , slow mo it , angle enhance it,
Looks like 50 percent think it was a legit win with no cloud and those that complain are salty haters

50% feel the stoppage was absurd and robbed Ward of a clean win , The fans to see a conclusive ending for the money paid and Kov to truly fight till the end

To ignore there's no controversy is just out right lying to oneself

You're over simplifying it... Roy said some things that make a hell of a lot of sense. Paulie said they were close, but not definitive, ref should've had better control of the situation, but Kova didnt do himself any favors. Thats a little more accurate, summary.

People in here can come up with their own perceived controvery of what happened but I tend to lean toward what former world champions that actually fought at the highest level, have to say about the lowblow situation than sherdoggers. Thats all Im sayin'.

 

[Marc A]

You're over simplifying it... Roy said some things that make a hell of a lot of sense. and Paulie said they were close, but not definitive...Ref should've had better control of the situation, but Kova didnt do himself any favors. Thats a little more accurate, summary.

At the beginning he did say his words not mine it shocked him it was stopped and a fight of that magnitude shouldn't have been stopped

Also the other half holds true

There is a cloud

 

[nastyleft]

At the beginning he did say his words not mine it shocked him it was stopped and a fight of that magnitude shouldn't have been stopped

Also the other half holds true

There is a cloud

He said it shouldn't have been stopped in THAT manner....I agree with that part...I thought we were robbed of a clean stoppage, cause it was coming.

I posted simply to show what real dudes that know the game said.

Did you pay attention to what Roy had to say? Did you watch the whole vid? What do think about what he said? Fresh after the fight hadnt even left the arena yet. Hadnt heard or read what folks were saying, unscripted...

 

[Marc A]

He said it shouldn't have been stopped in THAT manner....I agree with that part...I thought we were robbed of a clean stoppage, cause it was coming.

I posted simply to show what real dudes that know the game said.

Did you pay attention to what Roy had to say? Did you watch the whole vid? What do think about what he said? Fresh after the fight hadnt even left the arena yet. Hadnt heard or read what folks were saying, unscripted...

I heard both sides and both have great opinions and insight ,

Ward is a one in a million type fighter , hell his peers truly admire him as a fighter , heard many say it .

All I am pointing out is at that there are opposite viewpoints but I don't think a level headed person thought Kov could have won that night

 

[Rubberchin]

Regardless of whether or not Kovalev was hurt, that was a low blow and therefore a terrible stoppage. Anyone denying that is full of shit. It looked like Tony Weeks was desperate to stop it first chance he got.

 

[nac386]

You can believe that Ward was winning, had Kovalev hurt and gassed, and was on his way to stopping Kovalev, and still think Weeks did a bad job at the end of that fight.

I believe all those things, and I still think it was obviously a bad stoppage. I do mean obviously. You don't stop a championship fight in a moment like that. Kovalev deserved a chance to fight through it, Ward deserved a chance to end the fight emphatically, and the fans deserved to see a championship-level ending to the fight.

 

[wilddeuces]

I agree with it wouldve been better to let the fight go and control the fight better by the ref, but listen to a couple dudes that have boxed in the vids I posted. Like it or not, Paulie and Roy kick some knowledge, especilly Roy with the beltline thing, and he hadnt even left the arena yet. "Anybody that's boxed..." Yeah I think those two have an idea what thyere talking about.

I am glad that you mentioned them, because it serves to augment my initial point. If you observe the direct quotations from both men, you will see why I felt that the punch that landed was the wrong punch to end the fight on (which was the central idea, and the driving force behind my previous post):

Regarding Paulie: "I was disappointed with the stoppage" - he said this twice, and then added that, "...Andre didn't get a single warning for low-blows; he was throwing low blows..." and in saying these things, Paulie, too, acknowledges the lacklustre conditions for the stoppage.

Regarding Roy Jones: I (wilddeuces) said that the stoppage was a bad call, and that the low blow took away from Ward's win, it tarnished it and left doubt in the minds of many fans. It diminished Ward's victory because it was a bad punch to end the fight on. That is true, so even if someone were to dispute me on the absolute location of the low blow, like say, when Roy Jones (who talked about the belt line height) admonishes Kovalev for not "...hitting him back in the same spot..." meaning that he should have fouled him back, there is also the general agreement that the quality of the punch that stopped the fight was suspect. It was low enough to warrant a punch that was at least equally dubious in intent. See what I'm getting at? I think it's right on the money, Roy says it's low enough that Kovalev should have thrown low-blow right back into Ward's nether-regions. Remember that Tony Weeks himself admitted to making a grave error in professional judgment after watching the replay. The third man in the ring agrees too, and to my knowledge Tony Weeks has seen more than a few fights from more than a few angles.

And then you couple it with the video that clearly shows something that is below borderline...

...then you will see that what I said, and what they said is not mutually exclusive. I have all the respect in the world for their opinions, but in this case, both truths (theirs and mine) can reside in the same place, and both men agree that the punch that stopped the fight was suspect enough that, firstly, it shouldn't have been grounds for the stoppage, and secondly, was enough of a foul that should have been returned in kind. So, you see, what they said raises suspicion about the quality of the punch that ended the fight, which is exactly how I felt too.

Thanks for reminding me about what they said, I should have included that in my previous post! It's not about "like it or not", like you said, it's really only about "like" because their points harmonize with my own.

 

[Jonny Ninja]

After watching it a few times, with the way Kovalev was acting (having to be told a few times to not turn his back and actually fight) I don't think it was judgement to stop the fight very soon afterwards. Still, it's bad optics to have the fight stopped after a 3 punch flurry where at the very least one shot was clearly low (it looked like at least two of them were low). Prior to that, most of the shots Kovalev was complaining about (and trying to get breaks off of) were on the beltline which Weeks explicitly said were legal shots at the beginning of the fight. The final few shots were below the beltline, though. Kovalev was done and looking for a way out, but I don't think Weeks did a good job in that last round and it will take away from Ward's win a bit.

I think that last bit in your post sums it up perfectly! And the really sad thing is there is controversy over what is wards best win and very probably his best performance; and there really shouldn't be!

 

[nastyleft]

You can believe that Ward was winning, had Kovalev hurt and gassed, and was on his way to stopping Kovalev, and still think Weeks did a bad job at the end of that fight.

I believe all those things, and I still think it was obviously a bad stoppage. I do mean obviously. You don't stop a championship fight in a moment like that. Kovalev deserved a chance to fight through it, Ward deserved a chance to end the fight emphatically, and the fans deserved to see a championship-level ending to the fight.

I agree to an extent, Weeks should've ended the confusion by stepping in, giving a warning if for nothing else to let Kovalev know this shit was still on and to pull up his stap cause Ward's comin again when I wave you two to continue...Kovalev deserved to be able to fight through it or take a knee, or tell the ref he was done.... ONE problem with that though. Not everyone tells the ref he's done, body language does. Kovalev wasn't fighting back, he was vulnerable to defenseless punishment, thus helpless endangerment. Quitting in the middle of a fight. it's the referee's resposibility to make sure both boxers are as safe as possible, so, he made the call.

Ultimately the blame should be on Kovalev, becasue he didn't handle the situation like a World Class Pro, he was a fish out of water with the new experience of being bullied with "questionable blows", he wimpered and whined instead of fighting back and he gave the posture of a man that didnt want to fight anymore. Weeks really had no choice. If the fight ended up with Ward dropping Kovalev in a lifeless heap he couldve been blamed for letting it go too long.

 

[nac386]

ONE problem with that though. Not everyone tells the ref he's done, body language does. Kovalev wasn't fighting back, he was vulnerable to defenseless punishment, thus helpless endangerment. Quitting in the middle of a fight. it's the referee's resposibility to make sure both boxers are as safe as possible, so, he made the call.

Does anybody really believe Kovalev was in serious danger there, by boxing standards? It's a dangerous sport, but he was not in a scary situation at all. He had taken very little punishment in that fight. I think people are exaggerating the dire straits that Kovalev was in to excuse the bad stoppage.

Kov was gassed and hurt. But that happens all the time in boxing, it does not mean you stop the fight, you let it play out unless there is serious danger.

Ultimately the blame should be on Kovalev, becasue he didn't handle the situation like a World Class Pro, he was a fish out of water with the new experience of being bullied with "questionable blows", he wimpered and whined instead of fighting back and he gave the posture of a man that didnt want to fight anymore. Weeks really had no choice. If the fight ended up with Ward dropping Kovalev in a lifeless heap he couldve been blamed for letting it go too long.

I agree that Kovalev did not fight the way a champion should, but that does not excuse a bad stoppage. Weeks absolutely had a choice, and I think almost everybody watching had a, "WTF?" moment when he first jumped in. Kovalev was not about to be dropped into a lifeless heap, and if he somehow did, that's boxing, it can happen any time. Kovalev was not hurt in the kind of way that it takes to stop a championship fight. We've all seen 100s of fights, I'm honestly surprised we don't all agree that it was a lame stoppage.

 

[JayE]

You can believe that Ward was winning, had Kovalev hurt and gassed, and was on his way to stopping Kovalev, and still think Weeks did a bad job at the end of that fight.

I believe all those things, and I still think it was obviously a bad stoppage. I do mean obviously. You don't stop a championship fight in a moment like that. Kovalev deserved a chance to fight through it, Ward deserved a chance to end the fight emphatically, and the fans deserved to see a championship-level ending to the fight.

I don't think Kovalev should have taken much more damage than that, though. Weeks did a poor job to end it right when he did and not admonish the low blows and that's why I think it was a bad stoppage, but I think one or two more flurries were all we needed to see. Kovalev was exhausted, not offering anything back, and not really protecting himself. His body language was that of someone who had given up (Weeks had to remind him more than once to turn around and face Ward, as well). We don't need to see him knocked cold or even knocked down to justify a stoppage.

 

[nac386]

I don't think Kovalev should have taken much more damage than that, though. Weeks did a poor job to end it right when he did and not admonish the low blows and that's why I think it was a bad stoppage, but I think one or two more flurries were all we needed to see. Kovalev was exhausted, not offering anything back, and not really protecting himself. His body language was that of someone who had given up (Weeks had to remind him more than once to turn around and face Ward, as well). We don't need to see him knocked cold or even knocked down to justify a stoppage.

I agree, I said in another thread that I thought the fight was going to end soon if the fight was not stopped.

But I feel strongly that we should not let that influence what we think of the actual stoppage, which was very bad.

 

[nastyleft]

I am glad that you mentioned them, because it serves to augment my initial point. If you observe the direct quotations from both men, you will see why I felt that the punch that landed was the wrong punch to end the fight on (which was the central idea, and the driving force behind my previous post):

Regarding Paulie: "I was disappointed with the stoppage" - he said this twice, and then added that, "...Andre didn't get a single warning for low-blows; he was throwing low blows..." and in saying these things, Paulie, too, acknowledges the lacklustre conditions for the stoppage.

Regarding Roy Jones: I (wilddeuces) said that the stoppage was a bad call, and that the low blow took away from Ward's win, it tarnished it and left doubt in the minds of many fans. It diminished Ward's victory because it was a bad punch to end the fight on. That is true, so even if someone were to dispute me on the absolute location of the low blow, like say, when Roy Jones (who talked about the belt line height) admonishes Kovalev for not "...hitting him back in the same spot..." meaning that he should have fouled him back,. there is also the general agreement that the quality of the punch that stopped the fight was suspect. It was low enough to warrant a punch that was at least equally dubious in intent. See what I'm getting at? I think it's right on the money, Roy says it's low enough that Kovalev should have thrown low-blow right back into Ward's nether-regions..

I think you're missing what Roy meant by that... It wasn't a foul to being with it just may have been lower than he liked it, and it wasnt called a low-blow, so fairplay is fairplay. So I hit you there too and get your attention and see if we want to continue down this road. It either regulates itself and you bring 'em up bit, maybe we stop and slap gloves in acknowledgement that we're gonna keep it clean (my bad, your bad, lets move on), or the ref is gonna step in an warn BOTH of us fighters. And THATS why you do it. It's called taking care of yourself in the ring when the ref doesn't do it. Foul or not, tactics should be met with equal tactics. Kovalev didn't have that kind of experience. Instead he whined...

Remember that Tony Weeks himself admitted to making a grave error in professional judgment after watching the replay. The third man in the ring agrees too, and to my knowledge Tony Weeks has seen more than a few fights from more than a few angles.

And then you couple it with the video that clearly shows something that is below borderline...

...then you will see that what I said, and what they said is not mutually exclusive. I have all the respect in the world for their opinions, but in this case, both truths (theirs and mine) can reside in the same place, and both men agree that the punch that stopped the fight was suspect enough that, firstly, it shouldn't have been grounds for the stoppage, and secondly, was enough of a foul that should have been returned in kind. So, you see, what they said raises suspicion about the quality of the punch that ended the fight, which is exactly how I felt too.

Thanks for reminding me about what they said, I should have included that in my previous post! It's not about "like it or not", like you said, it's really only about "like" because their points harmonize with my own.

It wasnt the punch that stopped the fight, it was Kovalev's reluctance to continue.....Ref's job is to keep it safe. If one guy isn't fighting and the other is going i for the kill, the fight is over, might as well stop it.
But again, did you pay attention to the adjustments the ref makes when the beltline is above the navel? Roy clearly explained the nuances of how refs make a change. Weeks was most likely referring to his mistake of not doing more about the close calls (like allowing both fighters to clearly understandand whether it was a warning or keep fighting. Then again what should he do? The onus was on Kovalev...you're either hurt becasue a guy hit you in the groin so you have to take a knee and use 15-0 minutes to recover, or you're just complaining and letting your ass get beat-up. If the ref does nothing then as a professional you should know the fight is still on and fight. He didn't an got called for haing nothing left and the fight was stopped. I highly doubt doubt Weeks second guessing his decision on whether they were low blows or not, it's more about how he could've managed the situation better.

 

[nastyleft]

Does anybody really believe Kovalev was in serious danger there, by boxing standards? It's a dangerous sport, but he was not in a scary situation at all. He had taken very little punishment in that fight. I think people are exaggerating the dire straits that Kovalev was in to excuse the bad stoppage.

Kov was gassed and hurt. But that happens all the time in boxing, it does not mean you stop the fight, you let it play out unless there is serious danger.

By offical standards, Kovalev was in danger because he stopped fighting and had himself in a prone position to get hurt and the opponent was in for the kill.

I agree that Kovalev did not fight the way a champion should, but that does not excuse a bad stoppage. Weeks absolutely had a choice, and I think almost everybody watching had a, "WTF?" moment when he first jumped in. Kovalev was not about to be dropped into a lifeless heap, and if he somehow did, that's boxing, it can happen any time. Kovalev was not hurt in the kind of way that it takes to stop a championship fight. We've all seen 100s of fights, I'm honestly surprised we don't all agree that it was a lame stoppage.

But he was.....He was grimacing, bent over and looked like he didn't want to continue for whatever reason. Refs have been stopping fights before a guy can come in and get a kill shot in when a guy looks helpless and open to a clean defenseless punch for years. Weeks could've held off a little more, but I dont have too much of a problem with it, we all know the fight was over anyways. what difference does it make?

 

[nac386]

By offical standards, Kovalev was in danger because he stopped fighting and had himself in a prone position to get hurt and the opponent was in for the kill.

He didn't really stop fighting the way it's being described though. He looks to throw a 1-2 with :38 left, and the fight is stopped with :34 left, since his 1-2 was countered with (what he considered) a series of nut-shots.

He was in trouble, but he was not defenseless and ready to go comatose, there is some exaggeration occurring, I think.

But he was.....He was grimacing, bent over and looked like he didn't want to continue for whatever reason. Refs have been stopping fights before a guy can come in and get a kill shot in when a guy looks helpless and open to a clean defenseless punch for years.

We don't stop boxing matches for grimaces, it's a rough sport man. People grimace throughout the fight. He bent over because he was gassed and took several low-blows in a row.

I am just not seeing what you guys are seeing.

He was hurt, he was gassed, but I really do not think he was finished. He likely would have been finished soon, but you have to actually let it play out or you get what we have here now, which is controversy across the boxing world.

 

[nastyleft]

He didn't really stop fighting the way it's being described though. He looks to throw a 1-2 with :38 left, and the fight is stopped with :34 left, since his 1-2 was countered with (what he considered) a series of nut-shots.

He was in trouble, but he was not defenseless and ready to go comatose, there is some exaggeration occurring, I think.

We don't stop boxing matches for grimaces, it's a rough sport man.

This made me laugh for some reason!

People grimace throughout the fight. He bent over because he was gassed and took several low-blows in a row.

I am just not seeing what you guys are seeing.

He was hurt, he was gassed, but I really do not think he was finished. He likely would have been finished soon, but you have to actually let it play out or you get what we have here now, which is controversy across the boxing world.

Looked at it again and again.............Man that's a tough one. He looked done, no reason to continue. Somewhat premature but, not really gonna change anything. Maybe he couldve looked like a disaster and gotten out of the round... But lets be honest, we've seen worse stoppages than that.

 

[nac386]

This made me laugh for some reason!

Looked at it again and again.............Man that's a tough one. He looked done, no reason to continue. Somewhat premature but, not really gonna change anything. Maybe he couldve looked like a disaster and gotten out of the round... But lets be honest, we've seen worse stoppages than that.

It is a tough one. We've seen worse stoppages, definitely. Kovalev looked done, and I think he wanted out too, but I also wanted to see him truly stopped so that we have an exclamation point on the end of this rivalry.

But the better fighter won, and I think Kovalev played just enough of a role in the stoppage for me to not let the disappointment of the bad stoppage linger. Kovalev should have fought through that moment like a champion, and if he did, we would not be having this discussion.

 

[BluntTrauma21]

Kov definitely took a couple low blows, it's a tough fight to talk about, there's points on both sides. Kov was doubled over and not defending himself, the positioning of both fighters and the ref made it tough to tell where those shots were actually landing.

Kov was doubled over and Ward slamming shots into his gut/nut area. If you look at where Tony's positioned then it's pretty clear that Kov's arms were blocking his view. Kov had bitched about low blows several times before, had been hurt by perfectly legal shots to the body just seconds prior, and Weeks probably had it in his head that Kov couldn't take the beating anymore.

I'll give an unpopular opinion here, but I actually think Weeks is getting too much shit. He wasn't positioned well to see where those last shots were landing, Ward was on the complete opposite side and Kov was basically turned away from Weeks at that time. I can't watch the tape and say those ending shots weren't low blows, there were one or two that strayed low for sure.

Here's the deal, the whole situation was a clusterfuck at the ending. Kov was hurt badly and not defending himself. Ward was standing upright at a good angle to keep unloading shots on a Kov that was extremely vulnerable. Weeks was in a tough position both literally and figuratively. He couldn't see where those shots were landing b/c of the positioning of Kov's positioning and the fact that Ward was throwing through the guard so Kov's arms were blocking those last shots.

Weeks saw a guy getting blasted and didn't see any actual fouls taking place that he was aware of. Kov wasn't being held up by the ropes and he wasn't defending himself much, if at all. Ward could've kept punching but seemed confused as to what Weeks was gonna call it either.

There were fouls, you can't deny that. But fouls happen all the time in this sport and even the best of officials don't catch everything. Kov was doubled over, Ward was hurting him with legal shots to the body and head for what seemed like over 30secs or so (I'd have to go back and check to when Kov first got clipped and hurt). Kov backs into the ropes, looks gassed and hurt, then Ward blasts him low once or twice and Kov really looks out of it. Weeks can't see the shots b/c they were tough for EVERYONE to see, which is why we are posting vids, gifs, still shots, etc., days after the fight has taken place and still debating the merits of the stoppage.

I lean towards early stoppage based on the evidence weve seen, I wouldn't say BAD stoppage since it was so difficult to see what was happening at the end for most parties involved, and the fact that Kov was wilting by legal shots for awhile before that.


It wasn't a bad stoppage, it was a bit early, and the fact that the low blow/s came right at the ending makes it very unfortunate, but it is what it is. Weeks is getting too much shit for this, he should've positioned himself better but I didn't see any blatant lowblows either until the replays. This wasn't an easy ending to ref, if anything I blame Ward for not using his angle to pummel the shit out of Kov to the head to make the ending less controversial. Kov was about to go either way, Ward should've kept slamming shots into him but Weeks stepping in made both guys pause.

It was early, a foul or two was missed just by the positioning of all parties involved, (I'm not trying to play it down but Kov was in bad trouble before this and you can't ignore that when it comes to Weeks' decision to step in). All in all I really don't think anyone was at fault or doing their job poorly (well Kov looked like shit but that's it). It's unfortunate, not good, not bad, unfortunate, that we didn't get to see Ward finish him off cleanly to get his full credit.

I don't think it was a bad stoppage at the end of the day, unfortunate is the furthest I'd go.