Ward vs. Calzaghe... who wins?

[PUO3]

PUO wants to force his personal opinion on everyone.

We're talking about two undefeated world class boxers. Theres no blueprint on how to beat them. Yet one guy claims that its not even up for debate, that its pretty clear who would win.

Mate, you wouldn't even bet 500 bucks on Ward.

I dont give two shits who agrees with me and who doesnt.

I wouldnt bet 500 on Ward? Why did I make so much when he fought Kova? Nuts.

I can go back and find the posts where I offered bets to all takers if youd like.

 

[PUO3]

That's not entirely true. RJJ was shot, no debate. Hopkins still had it though. I mean, think about it this way: a 49 year old Hopkins was considered Kovalev's best win. I don't see why we can't be impressed with a much better Hopkins. Calzaghe also ended up facing Kessler, Manfredo Jr (who isn't particularly good), Bika, and Lacey, in his last six, none of whom I'd say were past their primes (I'd argue he beat Bika even cleaner than Ward).

Again, late Calzaghe did not hit hard, but earlier Calzaghe could definitely punch and he liked to sneak in his own dirty awkward punch/elbow combinations. I don't think Calzaghe gets destroyed inside either, he has faster hands and the stamina to get some shoe shining going whenever Ward really tries to open up inside. Maybe Ward can shut him down some, but I think Calzaghe's footwork was good enough that he could get out enough that he'd be flurrying combos as he moved out, which would even the score in the judges eyes. When Ward starts realizing that there's more to Calzaghe's punches than he's initially anticipated, he's going to be a bit more reluctant to go to work inside.

Im not saying the Hopkins win was shit or that its not a good win. But no one is going to tell me with a straight face that Hopkins was not past his prime.

 

[Koondrecht]

I said he wouldnt keep his rhythm. He would have his moments and win some rounds sure. Ward usually gives up some rounds while calculating the disection.

Not sure how many styles and how many times Ward has to shut someones best game down before people realize that hell do it to pretty much everyone.

Calzaghe doesnt pose a ton that gives Ward trouble. That work rate of Calzaghes goes right to shit when Ward has him chest to chest and mauls him.

Which fighter would give Ward problems?

 

[PUO3]

Which fighter would give Ward problems?

RJJ. I think Hagler could have also despite the size issue.

 

[wilddeuces]

I said he wouldnt keep his rhythm. He would have his moments and win some rounds sure. Ward usually gives up some rounds while calculating the disection.

Not sure how many styles and how many times Ward has to shut someones best game down before people realize that hell do it to pretty much everyone.

Calzaghe doesnt pose a ton that gives Ward trouble. That work rate of Calzaghes goes right to shit when Ward has him chest to chest and mauls him.

"Calzaghe would never get a rhythm and keep it going imo."

^your words. And, yes, Calzaghe would find it. It may come and go with someone like Ward, but mostly Ward either stays out or stays in. Calzaghe scraps on the inside and keeps a busy work rate. Ward might hit the cleaner shots, but that doesn't mean he looks like - or is winning - all those occasions inside.

And Calzaghe has beaten everyone he has faced, so if we extend the unbeaten laurel to Ward who always finds a way to win, we extend it to Calzaghe, too.

You said somewhere else that your bias is irrelevant. In fact, I would agree with you. I would say that it is irrelevant for the purposes of conversation (you said it around the time of resume quoting, but the reality is that it seeps into everything); you really ought to be more objective, as your partial thinking is obscuring your boxing mind. You too readily write off talent and ability when it's not the guy "on your side."

Bro, bottom line, it would be a close fight. They'd have to do a best of 3 or 5 to get something like a clear winner. And even then, I'm not convincing there would be a consensus. It's close enough that you can't call the winner confidently. Just accept it.

 

[PUO3]

"Calzaghe would never get a rhythm and keep it going imo."

^your words. And, yes, Calzaghe would find it. It may come and go with someone like Ward, but mostly Ward either stays out or stays in. Calzaghe scraps on the inside and keeps a busy work rate. Ward might hit the cleaner shots, but that doesn't mean he looks like - or is winning - all those occasions inside.

And Calzaghe has beaten everyone he has faced, so if we extend the unbeaten laurel to Ward who always finds a way to win, we extend it to Calzaghe, too.

You said somewhere else that your bias is irrelevant. In fact, I would agree with you. I would say that it is irrelevant for the purposes of conversation (you said it around the time of resume quoting, but the reality is that it seeps into everything); you really ought to be more objective, as your partial thinking is obscuring your boxing mind. You too readily write off talent and ability when it's not the guy "on your side."

Bro, bottom line, it would be a close fight. They'd have to do a best of 3 or 5 to get something like a clear winner. And even then, I'm not convincing there would be a consensus. It's close enough that you can't call the winner confidently. Just accept it.

You realize that you just agreed with what I said right.....? That Calzaghe wouldnt keep his rhythm? “It might come and go....” Your words. Same thing as “would never get a rhythm and keep it going”. My words.

Im sorry that I dont agree with you. Not sure why its so offensive.

Its such a close fight that barely anyone itt is picking Calzaghe. Got it.

 

[JayE]

Which fighter would give Ward problems?

At LHW I'd have several fighters favoured over him and Calzaghe.

 

[Snowball]

Its such a close fight that barely anyone itt is picking Calzaghe. Got it.

Lol you're losing it man. You just started the poll to use it as an argument that Andre Ward would most definitely beat Calzaghe. Really?

It could be 50-0 in favor of your boy from Oakland. It still wouldn't matter.

 

[PUO3]

Lol you're losing it man. You just started the poll to use it as an argument that Andre Ward would most definitely beat Calzaghe. Really?

It could be 50-0 in favor of your boy from Oakland. It still wouldn't matter.

Thats really just in your head, but ok.

I started a poll because “who would win” threads usually have polls.

 

[Snowball]

By the way, Ward is the one who is dependent on fighting with a rhytm.

 

[Snowball]

RJJ. I think Hagler could have also despite the size issue.

Plenty of boxers would give him problems.

 

[nastyleft]

The only thing CalSlappy could do is in fact up his output and try to outpoint Ward. you guys are right, he would try to do that, but Ward has quite a few tricks and would probably hurt Joe somewhere along the way. Ward wins...

 

[JayE]

By the way, Ward is the one who is dependent on fighting with a rhytm.

Not really. Ward has made a career out of breaking the rhythm of his opponents while potshotting with an arhythmic jab and then beating his opponent down on the inside. It's part of the reason why I've always been hesitant to call Ward a pure boxer.

 

[Snowball]

Pretty good explained here

 

[OGquickdraw]

This is easy call for Ward. I know that seems shocking as Joe was unbeaten, let me explain. Joe was soley dependant on work rate and stamina. If you watch several of his fight his short comings become painfully obvious, I'll use the BHop fight for example.

From round 1 Joe has a amateurish style, he makes several mistakes that would cost him against someone like Ward. He crosses his ankles, throws slapping arm punches that leave him open for the counter. Joe's only defense is his offense, pay attention to the times Hop lands the counters and disrups Joe's workrate. He has no reaction other then to square his feet and shell up. Against Ward who in his physical prime he wouldn't be able to wear him down with the pace of the fight. BHop while losing the fight put the spot light on Joe's weaknesses, had Hop been in his physical prime he would have secured the win easily. Joe's fought at a pace, that at 44 Hop couldn't compete with, early on however it was a different story.

If we look at the Kessler fight it plays out the same way. Kessler put the clean, crisper punches on him however he wasn't able to hold up to the the work rate.

Ward would be able to land the cleaner punches, stop Joe in his tracks and angle to avoid the slap attack. Ward has a superb inside fighting game that would be able to slow down Joe's work rate. 117-111 Ward no problem

 

[PUO3]

By the way, Ward is the one who is dependent on fighting with a rhytm.

His career says otherwise, as hes beaten people in many ways.

Plenty of boxers would give him problems.

I guess it depends on what we define as problems. The two listed are ones I think pose the most.

Beating Ward requires several things imo, and its a rare package to find. Supreme athleticism, crushing knockout power, and a ton of grit.

Weve seen this dude trade with knockout artists and win. Weve seen him outbox boxers. Weve seen him get the better of pretty much every opponent inside. Hes strong as a bull and is as game a competitor as youll ever see. Add that to being an elite tactician in the ring.

Calzaghe doesnt have enough to beat Ward, imo.

 

[Snowball]

Two boxers couldn't be closer, but you make it appear like they're far apart.
Cal has wins over Eubank, Lacy, ...Hopkins is a good win no matter how you spin. He beat Kessler and Bika way before Ward beat them.

Carl Froch actually ducked him, and I'm certain that Cal would've beaten Arthur Abraham and Allan Green too.

Cal and Ward are on par in every aspect.

 

[PUO3]

Two boxers couldn't be closer, but you make it appear like they're far apart.
Cal has wins over Eubank, Lacy, ...Hopkins is a good win no matter how you spin. He beat Kessler and Bika way before Ward beat them.

Carl Froch actually ducked him, and I'm certain that Cal would've beaten Arthur Abraham and Allan Green too.

Cal and Ward are on par in every aspect.

You seem to think I look down on Calzaghe or that I dont think highly of him. That isnt the case.

I simply view this as a very poor matchup for Calzaghe and a very good one for Ward.

Two different things.

 

[Snowball]

Based on what? You assume that Ward would have success against Calzaghe with what he usually does.

"Supreme athleticism, crushing knockout power, and a ton of grit." - I could argue that you need the same to beat Calzaghe since we never saw anyone beat him.

 

[PUO3]

Based on what? You assume that Ward would have success against Calzaghe with what he usually does.

"Supreme athleticism, crushing knockout power, and a ton of grit." - I could argue that you need the same to beat Calzaghe since we never saw anyone beat him.

“With what he usually does.”

Theres your problem. Ward doesnt usually do anything. He wins in a multitude of ways and often beats guys at their own game.