War Room OT Discussion v5

[Son of Jamin]

Trump's bombing campaigns have already killed almost as many civilians as all the drone strikes and bombing campaigns under the entire Obama administration, and he wants to remove the limitations Obama placed on drone strikes.

Valid point!

But in my opinion, he has still a long way to go before he reaches Obama's level:

- Arming radical Muslim groups in Syria
- Dethroning Muammar Gaddafi
- Enabling Hamas to smuggle drugs to America

But it's sad to see how Trump carries on the American legacy of buck dancing for the house of Saud.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Trump's bombing campaigns have already killed almost as many civilians as all the drone strikes and bombing campaigns under the entire Obama administration, and he wants to remove the limitations Obama placed on drone strikes.

At least we have something good and necessary to show for it...isis destroyed. Under Obama Isis was in power and waging war and...killing civilians.

 

[Ruprecht]

Valid point!

But in my opinion, he has still a long way to go before he reaches Obama's level:

- Arming radical Muslim groups in Syria
- Dethroning Muammar Gaddafi
- Enabling Hamas to smuggle drugs to America

But it's sad to see how Trump carries on the American legacy of buck dancing for the house of Saud.

Trump's only had a year, and it took him less than 3 months to give lie to any isolationist rhetoric from his campaign.
Not the worst in regards to that long standing American tradition, but no different.
This is a bit OT though, so I'll move these posts to the OT thread.

 

[Throttlehead]

I don't remember that he was a politician back then and that he voted for those wars.

Well obviously he didn't vote, but he is on video. For every negative tweet , there is a previous tweet saying the opposite, same with video.

Just SOME of his hits

 

[TheComebackKid]

Trump's only had a year, and it took him less than 3 months to give lie to any isolationist rhetoric from his campaign.
Not the worst in regards to that long standing American tradition, but no different.
This is a bit OT though, so I'll move these posts to the OT thread.

"I am going to bomb the shit out of Isis" - Donald Trump 2016

 

[Ruprecht]

"I am going to bomb the shit out of Isis" - Donald Trump 2016

"“the people opposing us are the same people — and think of this — who’ve wasted $6 trillion on wars in the Middle East — we could have rebuilt our country twice — that have produced only more terrorism, more death and more suffering. Imagine if that money had been spent at home.” - Donald Trump 2016

Yes, as pointed out he frequently speaks from both sides of his mouth with a forked tongue (or tweets to be more accurate).
"America First" was after all the name of the pre-WWII isolationist movement.
It's not just Isis either. As well as the missile strike on Assad's airport there are also other groups (and civilians) in Yemen and Somalia getting those American Democracy And Freedom Bombs.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Yes, as pointed out he frequently speaks from both sides of his mouth with a forked tongue (or tweets to be more accurate).
"America First" was after all the name of the pre-WWII isolationist movement.
It's not just Isis either, as well as the missile strike on Assad's airport there are also other groups (and civilians) in Yemen and Somalia getting those American Democracy And Freedom Bombs.

I didn't take it as speaking out of both sides of his mouth. I fully expected him to drone the hell out of Isis while not invading, destroying, and then rebuilding other nations. He's done both so far.

Trump never promised nor did anyone expect him to completely shut down the military, all of it's operations, and to give them no missions. What people expected was for him to not invade other countries and overthrow govts on a neo/lib-con agenda, get ourselves mired in never ending conflicts, and arm terrorists and stoke civil wars. We fully expected him to kill terrorists and stand up to the North Korea's of the world when necessary.

A large chunk of Trump supporters and conservative media criticized him for the strike on Assad's airbase. The strikes on Somalia were against Isis targets.

So far he's been pretty close to what he promised. I will concede however that he seems susceptible to being pushed into shit by his generals so there is a concern there. But so far it's only been a concern and not a manifestation.

 

[Ruprecht]

I didn't take it as speaking out of both sides of his mouth. I fully expected him to drone the hell out of Isis while not invading, destroying, and then rebuilding other nations. He's done both so far.

Trump never promised nor did anyone expect him to completely shut down the military, all of it's operations, and to give them no missions. What people expected was for him to not invade other countries and overthrow govts on a neo/lib-con agenda, get ourselves mired in never ending conflicts, and arm terrorists and stoke civil wars. We fully expected him to kill terrorists and stand up to the North Korea's of the world when necessary.

A large chunk of Trump supporters and conservative media criticized him for the strike on Assad's airbase. The strikes on Somalia were against Isis targets.

So far he's been pretty close to what he promised. I will concede however that he seems susceptible to being pushed into shit by his generals so there is a concern there. But so far it's only been a concern and not a manifestation.

Try again. I've linked to his explicit contradictions on Syria. No the strikes in Somalia and Yemen aren't all on "Isis targets" (the Houthis are Shia for a start) and I've thrown in some of the specific isolationist rhetoric from his campaign as well now.
How you "take it" has no bearing on what he's said as opposed to what he's done.
Personally I don't care that his rhetoric about spending your tax money at home instead of on military interventionism was empty, I'm outright pleased that his rhetoric about torture and committing war crimes seems to just be nonsense, but I do care that his continued interventionism (including the support of the Saudi bombing campaign in Yemen) and reduced oversight on airstrikes has dramatically increased the civilian death toll. Something I was already critical of Obama for in regards to the Pakistan drone strikes.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Try again. I've linked to his explicit contradictions on Syria and no the strikes in Somalia and Yemen aren't all on "Isis targets" and I've thrown in some of the specific isolationist rhetoric from his campaign as well now.

I agreed the Syria strike was a contradiction. I also noted he has been pretty close to what he has promised and not perfect. The Syria strike is what has made him not perfect. So if you want to focus on that and be fake outraged then have at it.

But for the most part, for me, he's operated the way he said he would. Definitely much more so than previous presidents.

 

[waiguoren]

Liberal Donny Deutsch on memo release, calls for open insurrection against the US government, "our democracy is under siege. People need to start taking to the streets, this is a dictator. This is not something to analyze anymore...we need a revolution at this point." (MSNBC):

 

[curryjunkie]

At least we have something good and necessary to show for it...isis destroyed. Under Obama Isis was in power and waging war and...killing civilians.

Isis is destroyed in the same way the Taliban are, that is.........not at all, as soon as western forces withdraw they will reappear

 

[Gregolian]

Trump's bombing campaigns have already killed almost as many civilians as all the drone strikes and bombing campaigns under the entire Obama administration, and he wants to remove the limitations Obama placed on drone strikes.

I get that and you say that but didn't Obama use a fucking drone to execute a goddamn American citizen without a trial?

I get that ultimately that's a net positive but the dude was an American and didn't get the trial that was his by right no matter how much he helped to plan shit like 9/11

 

[Fawlty]

I get that and you say that but didn't Obama use a fucking drone to execute a goddamn American citizen without a trial?

I get that ultimately that's a net positive but the dude was an American and didn't get the trial that was his by right no matter how much he helped to plan shit like 9/11

Just curious, since when are traitorous enemy combatants not a valid target? I understand that drones and the targeting they allow are a new and grey area, and that is troubling, but I do not understand this brand of outrage, for this kind of guy.

 

[Gregolian]

Just curious, since when are traitorous enemy combatants not a valid target? I understand that drones and the targeting they allow are a new and grey area, and that is troubling, but I do not understand this brand of outrage, for this kind of guy.

I think my "outrage" if you can call it that is we have on one hand, members of Obama's party that were screaming for the Gitmo detainees to be tried in non-military civilian courts with court appointed attorneys and shit but at the same time praised the summary execution of a man that was born an American citizen.

My outrage is more over the hypocrisy. Dude that got the drone dropped on his head in Yemen fucking deserved it but it's the hypocrisy of the whole thing that bothers me.

One of those "you can't have it one way when it benefits you politically and another way when you can parade around body parts in a rah-rah sort of fashion" thing that bothers me.

 

[Fawlty]

I think my "outrage" if you can call it that is we have on one hand, members of Obama's party that were screaming for the Gitmo detainees to be tried in non-military civilian courts with court appointed attorneys and shit but at the same time praised the summary execution of a man that was born an American citizen.

My outrage is more over the hypocrisy. Dude that got the drone dropped on his head in Yemen fucking deserved it but it's the hypocrisy of the whole thing that bothers me.

Okay I think I see the problem here. It is definitely not summary execution. It is targeting an enemy combatant in a war zone. That brings up all kinds of other questions about how we prosecute war today, but it doesn't mean he was executed.

 

[Gregolian]

Okay I think I see the problem here. It is definitely not summary execution. It is targeting an enemy combatant in a war zone. That brings up all kinds of other questions about how we prosecute war today, but it doesn't mean he was executed.

I can get behind that argument but then the enemy combatants we hold can have the basic human rights... ie enough food and water to live but IMO they don't fucking deserve the same rights to like an attorney and being tried in front of a civilian court.

 

[Fawlty]

I can get behind that argument but then the enemy combatants we hold can have the basic human rights... ie enough food and water to live but IMO they don't fucking deserve the same rights to like an attorney and being tried in front of a civilian court.

The alternatives are a) kangaroo court (military) or b) release them after the conflict. That's another shitty complication of modern war. I don't know the best answer to that one.

 

[HomerThompson]

You're both wrong.

 

[Gregolian]

The alternatives are a) kangaroo court (military) or b) release them after the conflict. That's another shitty complication of modern war. I don't know the best answer to that one.

We could just, "lose" them in transport back home........

And I'm perfectly OK with kangaroo court, they were trying to kill Americans and shit and got captured.

I know, that makes me an asshole.

 

[Fawlty]

You're both wrong.

Deport them all to Stockton?