Using a Shell or Crab Type Defense in MMA / KB

No.

The crab is actually a system based around that stance taught to a select few (like the Mayweathers)
 
Oh gawd. You know someone didn't read the thread carefully when you saw reply like that one above.
 
Bay Area said:
That's easy.

Number of Crab style MMA champions= zero

Number of Crab style MT champions= zero

Number of Crab style TKD champions= zero

Number of Crab style KK guys= zero

Number of Crab style San Shou champions= zero

Number of Crab style Savate champions= zero

Number of Crab style champions in any punching & kicking art= zero

So in conclusion, the crab style is worthless outside of boxing. The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. Not one Crab style champion outside of boxing. None whatsoever. Its called survival of the fitest. Like the dodo bird, the Crab in MMA can't survive to pass on its genes.
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the only problem I have with this post is that it fails to mention that only a few actually even teach the shell to begin with. And those who do manly only work with boxers...
 
Ok Discipulus, I like where you are going, but cross guard =/ crab style of boxing, nor does simply lowering your shoulder

edit: and sourdiesel209, that is the Philly Shell.
 
Jukai said:
Ok Discipulus, I like where you are going, but cross guard =/ crab style of boxing, nor does simply lowering your shoulder

edit: and sourdiesel209, that is the Philly Shell.
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What is the difference between the philly shell and the crab?
 
OK now Im confused. What the TS talking about simply lowering your lead hand like Ryu in Streetfighter? Or was he talking about mayweather/ tony type defense?
 
Ivica Truscek said:
I liked catching the low kick and stepping through with the cross for an easy takedown even before, when I was standing in more traditional squared stance, so lowering my left hand and turning more sideways made this easier and faster...

I actually made a stupid promise to the M-1 matchmaker that I would not try to take Damkovsky down untill I get hurt/tired/smart/whatever, so after a few succsessfull catch and cross counters to his low kick, I stopped doing them.
Even though he did not throw them super hard, he threw a lot of them, which did not hurt during the fight, but I did end up in the wheelchair going home...
I can post a nasty picture of my leg if you guys like that stuff :)
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That was really interesting to watch, you look a real handful! I have a question for you, I'm interested to know if you fought against a really heavy good kicker with great takedown defence, say a Benson Henderson or Jose Aldo would you still rely on taking and catching the kicks to land the counter? And also how do you find that stance for catching the body kicks?
 
Jukai said:
Bottom line, the dude has a winning record and competed in legitimate organizations.

I still have reservations with the overall premise of the thread (the advantages of the stance were more to do with linear mobility and the offense generated by his hands, less with his shoulder roll defense) but the same thing that got me annoyed with Sinister and Thug (complaining that possible negatives aren't worth discussing if they could happen to anyone) are the same complaints I have with the naysayers now (not happy with him because he wasn't doing things that simply aren't commonly done in MMA).

I like it. I really like his ability to catch kicks in that stance. It has made me rethink things.
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If anything seeing Ivica's use of the crab really just confirmed exactly what I already thought would be the advantages and disadvantages of that style. Great for counter punching, good defence against punches, bad against low kicks and kicks in general, no ability to check kicks.

If you have a boxing centred style and you are fighting a boxcentric opponent I think it's a great choice. This would be perfect against a Nick Diaz opponent. However I'm pretty certain it would be a bad choice against Jose Aldo or Antoni Hardonk.

As for Muay Thai, I couldn't see this style working because you would get heavily outpointed.
 
Nuclearlandmine said:
Oh dear, someone got the terms mixed up again.
Please read this thread again.
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f11/benefits-philly-shell-defense-ala-floyd-mayweather-jr-1814341/

Cliff notes: Floyd Mayweather and James Toney use their own version of the Crab, while guys like Bennie Briscoe and Joe Frazier use the Philly Shell.
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Eesh... I gotta go with Sinister on this one, but I was told (by a boxing coach) that the term 'Philly Shell' really didn't exist until it was given to Mayweather/Tony by EA Sports. And I know this ain't a super great indicator, but I can't find anything on the internet that says Joe Frazier used the Philly Shell. He used a cross-guard defense, he would bob and weave as a primary form of defense, he didn't use his shoulder like Tony/Mayweather.

I'm really confused now.
 
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I was always under the impression that the cross-armed style was with the arms used horizontally to protect the head, and THAT's where the waist bending/rolling was most prominent. I was also under the impression that some people call it the "crab" also. Archie Moore and Ken Norton were known to use this defense during fights.





The (philly) shell style is similar in that the waist bending/rolling is still prominent, but the arms aren't held horizontally but more so a front-low, but seem to vary...lead low, more peekaboo-like placement, standard, etc...at any given moment. The back hand seems to get used a lot for defense of face punches...etc. This is your Frazier, Foreman, Briscoe.





The crab term seems to be more commonly associated with the bladed stance, front hand-low and right hand high, that uses the lead shoulder and rear hand to protect the head, as well as employs distance/leaning and turning/shoulder rolling to facilitate counter punches. This is your Mayweather and Toney.





I'm probably wrong somewhere on that as I'm not a boxing history connoisseur. But that's my understanding of it all at present.
 
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Well, can you find any clip of Foreman/Frazier/Briscoe where an announcer/trainer/anyone talks about their Philly Shell style? The term seemed to come out of nowhere and really only gained prominence after Fight Night. I probably know half as much of boxing history as you, SAAMG, but I can't really find anything that backs up what you're saying...
 
That's based on today's understanding of the terms. The semantics if you will. I don't honestly know who coined the terms the very first time. But I also think SOME of the fighters that are said to be "philly shell" types could also easily be coined "cross arm" styled as well, as they're close in resemblance.

But let's give credit where it's due...I honestly believe that a lot of boxers probably don't know the minute differences that Sinister talks about. I've learned a lot from him to be honest with the internal jargon, histories, and so forth having come from mostly a muay thai background myself. Hell I'm still confused with why some boxers say the bob in "bob and weave" is the elevation change when Sinister says the side to side motion of Tyson is actually bobbing! lol

But I digress.
 
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Jukai said:
Well, can you find any clip of Foreman/Frazier/Briscoe where an announcer/trainer/anyone talks about their Philly Shell style? The term seemed to come out of nowhere and really only gained prominence after Fight Night. I probably know half as much of boxing history as you, SAAMG, but I can't really find anything that backs up what you're saying...
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no one has ever called it the Philly shell.

It came from fight night.

Sinister pointed out that the Michigan fighters dont use the shell as the game described it ( shoulder roll etc) the shell is actually (per sinister) more rolling ducking etc
 
Great stuff gents. Thanks for all the help getting my head around this.

I had a comment but, I can't think of it right now. I feel like watching the pro fighter's videos confirmed most of what I was thinking.
 
thugpoet said:
no one has ever called it the Philly shell.

It came from fight night.

Sinister pointed out that the Michigan fighters dont use the shell as the game described it ( shoulder roll etc) the shell is actually (per sinister) more rolling ducking etc
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Ok, so... the game coined the term for Mayweather/Toney but described what Frazier/Foreman did?

Hm...

I now agree with what you said earlier Thugpoet. I don't have a fraction of knowledge to actually debate this topic.
 
For the record, I do like the term "Philly Shell" to describe the defensive tendencies of the Philly Fighters. I just kind of drew the lines between the difference between they and the Michigan fighters who are descendents of Tommy Ryan's "Crouching Crab" style that was taught to Jim Jeffries. It's about geographical and style distinction more than anything else.

Though again, we shouldn't group Frazier and Foreman together. Frazier did a touch of the cross-armed guard. But more than anything else he kept the lead arm down, head off-center, and rolled out of the way of punches.

What Foreman did was learned directly from Archie Moore himself. If you want to see the contrast look no further than this fight (which I've posted before, but it seems forgotten):



There it is plain as day. Philly vs. Moore's style (taught to Baptist by Archie's Son, Billy). What you'll most note is how frontal Baptist is versus how Hopkins is notably more bladed and behind the lead shoulder as opposed to the arms.

FWIW: After all this hooplah in this thread, we should also consider that once upon a time Tommy Ryan was looked at as an idiot for even inventing the Crab style. No one gave it second thought, and Jeffries wasn't picked to win the Title. Now it's considered an elite practice.
 
aries said:
That was really interesting to watch, you look a real handful! I have a question for you, I'm interested to know if you fought against a really heavy good kicker with great takedown defence, say a Benson Henderson or Jose Aldo would you still rely on taking and catching the kicks to land the counter? And also how do you find that stance for catching the body kicks?
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I believe I would, yes. If done at the same time, catch and cross, there is no time for the TD defence, but if I just catch the kick and than wait/play around with the cross or left low kick sweep, I give him too much time to defend it.

For body kicks, the right one is pretty much impossibe for me to catch, and Im happy nobody throws it hahaha, but the left is very easy, just underhooking the leg with my left arm.

As Im turned to my right, guys want to kick me in the head or the body with the left leg a lot, so I get a lot of these left underhook-right underhook-lift-right low kick sweeps as well...
 
Ivica Truscek said:
I believe I would, yes. If done at the same time, catch and cross, there is no time for the TD defence, but if I just catch the kick and than wait/play around with the cross or left low kick sweep, I give him too much time to defend it.

For body kicks, the right one is pretty much impossibe for me to catch, and Im happy nobody throws it hahaha, but the left is very easy, just underhooking the leg with my left arm.

As Im turned to my right, guys want to kick me in the head or the body with the left leg a lot, so I get a lot of these left underhook-right underhook-lift-right low kick sweeps as well...
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Appreciate your candid response. Yeah I could see how the simultaneous catch counter would work better.

And what you say about the right side body kick, sounds like a southpaw stance hard body kicker might be a bad match up for you.
 
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